Sunter, Lunn, Wallace, Bruce, Watson, Morris, Peddie

Andrew Sunter · Post by **Andrew Sunter** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:09 am

Hi

I've been looking back into my family tree over the last few weeks and i think i've got us as far back as a marriage between David Sunter and Margaret Andrew in 1795. on the parish marriage record the male is deemed as son of William Sunter. I've found 2 possible William Sunters who both lived in the same place (Kilconquhar in Fife) and had the same occupation (weaver). I am assuming that the 2 of them are related (cousins maybe).

any clues as to how i can differentiate between the 2 and so take my tree further? this is what i have so far:

Great great great great granddad: David Sunter married to Margaret Andrew. David and Margaret married 1795 in Renfrew.

Great great great granddad/gran: William Sunter and Elizabeth Christie married 1822 in Kirkcaldy. William was born on 10 January 1798. died in Earlsferry, Fife aged 80 in 1878. Death certificate provides David and Margaret as per the above as his parents.

WilmaM · Post by **WilmaM** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:25 am

Welcome to Talking Scot Andrew,

It is possible that William Sunter's parents lived to 1841 and would be on the census for that year.

I can't see any of them on the freecen site, but that isn't complete yet.
Do you have William & Elizabeth on the various census returns? you can find them on Scotlands People.

Perhaps you might even find a parent living with them?

JustJean · Post by **JustJean** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:40 am

Have you explored a naming pattern for the children born to David and Margaret...especially for a possible paternal mother's name? If you could identify the wives of each of your mystery Williams it might be helpful. Also have you spent some time researching collateral lines? Sometimes the only way forward is to determine which individual cannot be yours!

Best wishes
Jean

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:47 am

It is possible that William Sunter's parents lived to 1841 and would be on the census for that year.

Remember that some of the Fife parishes 1841 census records did not survive...

Andrew Sunter · Post by **Andrew Sunter** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:29 pm

WilmaM wrote:Welcome to Talking Scot Andrew,

It is possible that William Sunter's parents lived to 1841 and would be on the census for that year.

I can't see any of them on the freecen site, but that isn't complete yet.
Do you have William & Elizabeth on the various census returns? you can find them on Scotlands People.

Perhaps you might even find a parent living with them?

I have Elizabeth on the 1841 census but William isn't on it. but then William re-appears on the 1861 census and Elizabeth isn't. I'm assuming the 2 are the same as they had a son Robert who appears on both and at the correct ages.

Andrew Sunter · Post by **Andrew Sunter** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:34 pm

JustJean wrote:Have you explored a naming pattern for the children born to David and Margaret...especially for a possible paternal mother's name? If you could identify the wives of each of your mystery Williams it might be helpful. Also have you spent some time researching collateral lines? Sometimes the only way forward is to determine which individual cannot be yours!

Best wishes
Jean

there is very much a naming pattern in that every name they have given a child is still in the family in some shape or form today

, but there are no middle names listed on what i've seen and that usually indicates a mothers maiden name does it not?

Basically I'm relying on 2 parish records both of which just say David son of William.

i'm a bit snookered i think.

PS - thanks for your help.

JustJean · Post by **JustJean** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:22 pm

Andrew Sunter wrote:
JustJean wrote:Have you explored a naming pattern for the children born to David and Margaret...especially for a possible paternal mother's name? If you could identify the wives of each of your mystery Williams it might be helpful. Also have you spent some time researching collateral lines? Sometimes the only way forward is to determine which individual cannot be yours!

Best wishes
Jean
there is very much a naming pattern in that every name they have given a child is still in the family in some shape or form today , but there are no middle names listed on what i've seen and that usually indicates a mothers maiden name does it not?

Basically I'm relying on 2 parish records both of which just say David son of William.

i'm a bit snookered i think.

PS - thanks for your help.

Indeed a middle name often does indicate a maiden name of the mother...or in cases of illegitmacy the surname of the father. Not helpful at all to have a naming pattern that just uses the same old handful of names over and over!

Like you say....you just might be snookered at this point

Best wishes
Jean

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:57 pm

Hi David
Perhaps worth looking at the second female child, as she should, if the naming pattern was followed, carry the first name of her paternal grandmother, so perhaps give you the name William's wife. However if both Williams in Kilconquhar married women with the same first name you'll be no further forward...

I'm not seeing that marraige you mentioned for 1795 listed on IGI - is it perhaps only on SP? I've not looked yet. But I am seeing this, which seems a coincidence of names....:
DAVID SUNTER
Male

Marriages:
Spouse: MARGARET ANDREW
Marriage: 02 APR 1785 Low Church, Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland

The above couple seem to have three children in the Paisley area around the same time your couple appear to be having kids in Fife but looking at the children, there is no reason why they could not be the same couple moving back and forth.... I wonder if that is possible? With the children, none are born at the same time which would lead one to suppose they are the same couple and the spacing of the births seems about right.

JEAN SUNTER - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 14 DEC 1785
Female Christening: 18 DEC 1785 Kilconquhar, Fife, Scotland

ALEXANDER SUNTER
Gender: Male Christening: 21 FEB 1788 Low Church, Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland

MARGARET SUNTER
Gender: Female Birth: 05 NOV 1790 Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland

JAMES SUNTER
Gender: Male Birth: 07 FEB 1793 Middle Church, Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland

ANNE SUNTER
Gender: Female Birth: 25 MAY 1795
Female Christening: 31 MAY 1795 Kilconquhar, Fife, Scotland

WILLIAM SUNTER
Gender: Male Birth: 10 JAN 1798
Male Christening: 15 JAN 1798 Kilconquhar, Fife, Scotland

DAVID SUNTER - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 29 APR 1800
Male Christening: 06 MAY 1800 Kilconquhar, Fife, Scotland

JOHN SUNTER
Gender: Male Birth: 01 MAY 1802
Male Christening: 26 AUG 1802 Kilconquhar, Fife, Scotland

JANET SUNTER - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 05 AUG 1806
Female Christening: 23 SEP 1806 Kilconquhar, Fife, Scotland

ELISABETH SUNTER
Gender: Female Birth: 03 SEP 1809
Female Christening: 17 SEP 1809 Kilconquhar, Fife, Scotland

Best wishes
Lesley

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:12 pm

SP agrees that the date of a marriage of David Sunter & Margaret Andrew is 1785, Paisley Low.

Of the above children listed in IGI, all are extracts except Margaret who is a submission.

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:33 pm

Andrew Sunter wrote:
WilmaM wrote:Welcome to Talking Scot Andrew,

It is possible that William Sunter's parents lived to 1841 and would be on the census for that year.

I can't see any of them on the freecen site, but that isn't complete yet.
Do you have William & Elizabeth on the various census returns? you can find them on Scotlands People.

Perhaps you might even find a parent living with them?
I have Elizabeth on the 1841 census but William isn't on it. but then William re-appears on the 1861 census and Elizabeth isn't. I'm assuming the 2 are the same as they had a son Robert who appears on both and at the correct ages.

What was William's occupation - the one married to Elizabeth Christie who died in 1878?

Regards,
Annette