World War One - Scottish Roll of Honour

[Cramond Brig]

I am researching a Roll of Honour of all those Scots who died in WW1, including not only the Army but also the Royal Navy, The Royal Flying Corps (RAF), the Merchant Marine and all Commonwealth Forces. I am currently working through around 7,000 Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.

I want to give everyone at home and abroad the opportunity to ensure that their ancestors are included, but it is also important that people pass on any particularly interesting or poignant family history of the time. For example, I have so far found many examples of 2 and 3 brothers dying from one family as well as fathers and sons. There are also examples of men returning from Australia, Canada and New Zealand in order to enlist.

I hope to hear from many of you and don't hesitate to make contact.

Alistair

[LesleyB]

Hi Alistair
...and welcome to Talking Scot.

That sounds like a very interesting project, but one where a lot of hard work will be involved given the sheer number of people. The 7,000 Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders alone sound daunting!

Sorry - lots of questions coming up, but just interested to know a bit of background!

Can I ask what the end purpose of your work will be? Is it for a book, an online resource, a CD or some other project?

Has the work been funded or requested by or are you representing an organisaton such as the SNWM or is it a personal project? Will it be something which is made freely available to the public, as a more detailed partner to CWGC for instance?

Best wishes
Lesley

[Cramond Brig]

Hi Alistair
...and welcome to Talking Scot.

Thank you

That sounds like a very interesting project, but one where a lot of hard work will be involved given the sheer number of people. The 7,000 Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders alone sound daunting!

It has taken me about 5 months to get to 'T' in the Argylls

Sorry - lots of questions coming up, but just interested to know a bit of background!

Can I ask what the end purpose of your work will be? Is it for a book, an online resource, a CD or some other project?

Has the work been funded or requested by or are you representing an organisaton such as the SNWM or is it a personal project? Will it be something which is made freely available to the public, as a more detailed partner to CWGC for instance?

My wife is an Honorary Fellow (i.e. unpaid) at The Centre for The Study of The Two World Wars at Edinburgh University. Between us we recently completed a Roll of WW2 Irish dead which was presented through Edinburgh University to Trinity College, Dublin. As you will know, there has long been denial in the south of the country about the number of men and women who joined the British Forces in WW2.

I decided that something should be done for the Scots. Each database I have looked at over the years seemed deficient in one respect or another e.g., CWGC has ages and family connections missing - often not flagging up that men are brothers or father and son. So, yes, this is a personal project funded out of my own resources. I am 70 years old and retired and hope to complete this before the Grim Reaper comes along. javascript:emoticon(':)')

I hope the completed project will be given to Edinburgh University to present to the Scottish Parliament and that it will be available in print and electronically.

I think that has answered you question. Not criticising you, Lesley, but on another forum one individual became personally abusive because he seemed unable to accept that nobody was paying me big chunks of money to do this.

Regards

Alistair

[Cramond Brig]

Private George Sutherland, Birthplace Wick, Residence British Guiana, Death Date 17 June, 1918, Enlistment Location Aberdeen, Regiment Princess Louise's (Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders) 1/5th Battalion, Service Number S/20755. Son of Mrs M Sutherland, 158 Broomhill Road, Aberdeen

This is one of the 7,000 or so Argyll's I have included in the WW1 Roll of Scotland's Dead that I am working on. Unfortunately these appear to be the only CWGC and National Archive details - but I may have missed him.

I am really keen to find out who his parents were, details of any siblings and if the British Guiana connection makes sense to anyone from Caithness. There are so many George Sutherlands.

I have found these two in 1901 -

George Sutherland 47, b Lutheron, Caithness, wife Marjory, 34 living at H M C Prison Seafield where he was Clerk of Works at H M Prison Peterhead. Others in the household: Maggie Sutherland 16, Andrew Sutherland 14, Christian Sutherland 8, George F Sutherland 6, Patrick C Sutherland 2

George Sutherland 23, b Wick, boarder at 5 Schoolhill in Aberdeen. Occupation was shoemaker.

I have found a Medal Card for Private Sutherland with the correct Argyll Service Number. It shows him first enlisting in the British West Indies Regiment and then transferring to the Argylls. Begins to make the British Guiana connection credible.

I got this information from a person working on a BWIR webpage for Channel 4 Television –

"I'm afraid I have no more to add to what you have found via Medal Card, CWGC and SDGW records. I have found that there were a few men who were born in the UK but enlisted in British Guiana, started off in the BWIR and were transferred out to another regiment later. George volunteered and enlisted in British Guiana and was drafted into the British Guiana Contingent and transported to the UK. This was probably because he didn't have the money to pay his own fare, and the local colonial government paid for the cost. I have come across a couple of other people who enlisted in the Caribbean but 'made there own way' to the UK and joined a British regiment on arrival. As you are probably aware the BWIR was a 'colonial' or 'black' regiment officered by Europeans. George was most certainly of European (Scots) decent, so didn't fit in with the BWIR profile. He was probably placed in the BWIR on a temporary holding basis in the UK until he was transferred to a 'suitable' regiment. It should also be noted that 'black' Britons (living in the UK) who enlisted with a British Regiment were often transferred to the BWIR later.

Some others I found who enlisted in British Guiana and later transferred to British Regiments:

Thomas William Hunte 124 BWIR later 5417 Royal Irish Rifles
William E. Mackay 181 West India Regiment (poss mistake, could be BWIR) later 203326 Royal Scots Fusiliers.
Cecil Sadler 229 BWIR later 24747 Gloucester Regiment."

I would like to find the correct George so that I can put in some family details. I suspect it is asking too much for someone to know why he went to BG.

Any help much appreciated

Alistair

[Adam Brown]

Alistair

A very worthy project and with access to the internet it is possible to do this sort of thing without funding. The most important thing you need is time.

Take for example the Scottish War Memorial Project forum which I hope you are using in your research. It's all done by volunteers and all done on a free hosting forum using free photograph hosting websites.

The SNWM lists 148,270 names for the Great War. Even discounting duplicates (for example Lovat Scouts who died after 1916 are listed under Yeomanry and Cameron Highlanders) and the men who served in Scottish regiments who weren't Scottish (and there were a fair few of them) you must be looking at tens of thousands of names to research.

Compared to the SNWM's 148k roughly names how many names do you think you will have on your Roll of Honour?

Kind regards

Adam

ps Are you aware of the 'In from the Cold' project which is trying to find the men and women who died from the effects of war service in the First World War but have not been commemorated by the CWGC?
There is also a similar Non-Commemoration section on the Scottish War Memorials Project.

[LesleyB]

Hi Alistair

Not criticising you, Lesley, but on another forum one individual became personally abusive because he seemed unable to accept that nobody was paying me big chunks of money to do this.

My reasons for asking were twofold:
1. If people are being asked to provide personal family information I think they need to know where that info is going and what is going to be done with it. Many people, myself inlcuded, are not going to be be too keen to give personal family details unless they know what that info is to be used for. I think it also has implications for those provding the info - if it is to be made public then is the submitter of the detailed information for each soldier to be credited as the provider of said info?

2. As you may not be aware, being a new member, (and with our rules not yet put back in place after our server crash) TS has rules about folk making posts which may lead to direct personal gain. I thought this sounded like a personal project, but if for instance you had had some deal or arrangment to provide this project and were to be receiving remuneration for the work, then in the context of this forum that would have put your request into a different light altogether.

I'm quite happy to accept that you are doing this out of dedication and interest in the subject - many of our members spend hours and very often their own money helping others out with their family trees for no charge at all, so we are well used to the concept here!!

Best wishes
Lesley

[emanday]

Hi Alistair,

I've watched your posts and Lesleys's questions with interest as I had the same queries as she had. I have no doubts your project is a worthy one and, from my own research "brick walls" could be an opening to a lot of missing information.

TS was never designed or setup to allow for the personal profit of research organisations. We are here to try and advise, based on our own experiences, to point members in the right direction that their research might follow in order to further their family history. Where possible we do provide actual information, but usually simply give guidance.

In the past, we have had profit-based research organisations try and use our helpful members to try and enlarge their information data, but we have resisted as much as we can.

Lesley's post's have shown the same level of "discretion" that all TS's moderators might have used. We do NOT automatically judge a request for information as an "advertisement". Instead, as Lesley did, we do ask for a further bit of information about about how the received information is to be used/made available to the interested public.

TS isn't here to promote commercial genealogy sites, so much as to help, guide and advise family researchers on "where to try next" with a modicum of actual fact to give them a little "kick in the right direction".

Lesley's posts weren't, I believe, designed to question you on your motives so much as to preserve the integrity of this valuable and much valued forum.

I hope you will agree that a site like this is an asset to genealogy researchers and needs to be protected from commercial influences as much as possible.

I believe that your motives are similar to ours and hope that your project is succesfull and that the information you obtain is made available to the genuine researcher through the existing access points.

Good luck to you.

[Cramond Brig]

I have another possibility in my quest to find the right George Sutherland -

A George Sutherland was born c1832 in Udny, Aberdeenshire and married Margaret Cruickshank, born c1851 in Auchterless, Aberdeenshire on 6 June 1872 at Culsalmond, Aberdeenshire. The difference in ages suggest the George snr could have died by 1918 when George jr's mother is on her own. George snr was an Episcopal Clergyman.

In the 1851 census - Student at Marischal College, Aberdeen; 1881 census - Clergyman at Wick; 1891 & 1901 census - Clergyman at Portsoy, Fordyce, Banffshire. There were 10 children born to this couple including George, born 17 May 1878 at Wick.

George jr is shown in the 1891 Census but not 1901. I wonder if he had gone to BG to "seek his fortune" and then returned to Aberdeenshire, perhaps on the death of the father or because of the War.

Any input would be appreciated as I would like to do this lad justice in the Roll.

Alistair

[Cramond Brig]

A very worthy project and with access to the internet it is possible to do this sort of thing without funding. The most important thing you need is time

It has taken 5 months to get through 7,000 Argylls. I hope to live long enough to complete the project!

Take for example the Scottish War Memorial Project forum which I hope you are using in your research. It's all done by volunteers and all done on a free hosting forum using free photograph hosting websites

Thanks for that. I will register.

The SNWM lists 148,270 names for the Great War. Even discounting duplicates (for example Lovat Scouts who died after 1916 are listed under Yeomanry and Cameron Highlanders) and the men who served in Scottish regiments who weren't Scottish (and there were a fair few of them) you must be looking at tens of thousands of names to research.

Compared to the SNWM's 148k roughly names how many names do you think you will have on your Roll of Honour?

I think the official number for the Army was 150.000 - so it will be that plus the other Defence Forces, British and Commonwealth.

ps Are you aware of the 'In from the Cold' project which is trying to find the men and women who died from the effects of war service in the First World War but have not been commemorated by the CWGC?
There is also a similar Non-Commemoration section on the Scottish War Memorials Project.

I wasn't aware. CWGC does have deaths from 1919 up to 1921 so I guess these would be from the effects.

Thank you for the supportive nature of your post - and now back to the "W" Argylls

Regards

Alistair

[LesleyB]

The "In from the Cold" project can be found here:
http://www.infromthecold.org/