why go to Edinburgh to get married

bobandbryony · Post by **bobandbryony** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:33 pm

Hi everyone

We are used to looking for a marriage record in the home parish of the bride. Two of our ancestors married in Edinburgh in 1840 but he came from Kincardine (R&C) and she from Invergordon, Rosskeen. In the census of the following year they were found back in Rosskeen as they were in 1851 too. Their first child appears not to have been born until 1845 so we don't think they went to Edinburgh to avoid a scandal! Can anyone think why they would travel all that way? His job was a carwright.

The OPR marriage record shows where they were staying in Edinburgh at the time of the wedding. Can anyone tell me how I look up the two addressses in the 1841 census on Scotlands People or elsewhere so I can see whether the occupants offer some clue as to why they made the long journey?

Thank you and kind regards

Bob and Bryony

Post by **Anne H** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:54 pm

Hi Bob and Bryony,

Unfortunately to my knowledge, there is no way to check addresses on SP but you can do so with Ancestry or Freecen for the census periods, if the period is covered, but of course, your people were back where they belonged by the 1841 census.

The simple explanation would be that they both worked in Edinburgh or had been visiting for a time and just decided to get married there.

Regards,
Anne H

Ann In the UK · Post by **Ann In the UK** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:07 pm

married in Edinburgh in 1840
Their first child appears not to have been born until 1845 so we don't think they went to Edinburgh to avoid a scandal

Could it have been five years before their first child survived, perhaps?
Five years was a heck of a long time to wait for a first pregnancy in those days. How many children did they have subsequently? If there were several, I'd suspect they lost a few here and there. The average family size tended to bef about 5-9 children right up until the turn of the 20th century, and the space between births tended to be about 2-4 years. But infant (and maternal ) mortality was extremely high . So, I wouldn't rule out the possiblity of a "scandal," which may have been averted if the child had either died following the birth, or it may even have been placed in a foundling hospital even if the parents subsequently married (I know there was one in Edinburgh in the late 18th century, but I don't know where it was, or how long it was there for. And illegitimate children - even those whose parents subsequently married, or married before they were actually born - were the backbone of those places).

Another alternative, perhaps is, having married, the pregnancy never went to term.

bobandbryony · Post by **bobandbryony** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:45 pm

Thank you for your messages.

We will keep searching.

As new members we would just like to say how great the site is and how friendly everyone has been. We find the other forums very interesting and enjoy reading replies from like minded people.

Thanks once again.

Bob and Bryony

jennyblain · Post by **jennyblain** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:01 pm

Hi Bob and Bryony,
Do you have the actual text of the the marriage record? This may give a clue. Invergordon in Ross-shire (?) seems a long way, but being in service is a likely explanation.. I've got people who moved as much.

The 1841 Edinburgh census is all on FreeCen, though it may be either the Kincardine (which one?) or Invergordon address you are looking for. But the occupants of the Edinburgh address might help too.

All best
Jenny

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:33 pm

Ann In the UK wrote:
married in Edinburgh in 1840
Their first child appears not to have been born until 1845 so we don't think they went to Edinburgh to avoid a scandal
Could it have been five years before their first child survived, perhaps?
Five years was a heck of a long time to wait for a first pregnancy in those days. How many children did they have subsequently? If there were several, I'd suspect they lost a few here and there. The average family size tended to bef about 5-9 children right up until the turn of the 20th century, and the space between births tended to be about 2-4 years. But infant (and maternal ) mortality was extremely high . So, I wouldn't rule out the possiblity of a "scandal," which may have been averted if the child had either died following the birth, or it may even have been placed in a foundling hospital even if the parents subsequently married (I know there was one in Edinburgh in the late 18th century, but I don't know where it was, or how long it was there for. And illegitimate children - even those whose parents subsequently married, or married before they were actually born - were the backbone of those places).

Another alternative, perhaps is, having married, the pregnancy never went to term.

Agree with Anne's explanations and thoughts.

I did notice this submission from the IGI at their home parish -

DONALD ROSS

Marriages:
Spouse: CHRISTIAN MUNRO Family
Marriage:
30 JUL 1841 Rosskeen, Ross And Cromarty, Scotland

Soooo frustrating as the names are very common in the area but I think this might be worth checking out at SP. It also looks likely (unless you've found otherwise) that Donald and Christina were not living in the same household in 1841. As I'm sure you've seen it is most likely that Donald was in the same household as his in-laws then without Christina.

Going back to wee Donald's birth in 1855 - it should state how many children Christina had given birth to and whether they were alive or dead.

Christina's death entry in 1855 should give names and ages of all living children and names, ages and year of death for others. This should help you work out whether she had any children born before wee Christina.

Hope I'm not causing more confusion.

Regards,
Annette

bobandbryony · Post by **bobandbryony** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:37 am

Hi everyone and thanks again.

Now firstly the OPR for parish of Edinburgh (685 vol66) reads :

(Proclaimed 31st May and 7th and 14th June)

Donald Ross, Cartwright,residing at No.3 Writers' Court,High Church Parish, and Christina Munro,lately residing No 68, Queens Street, St George's Parish, daughter of William Munro, Farmer, Parish of Alness,have been3 times proclaimed in order to marriage in the Parish church of High Church and St George's and no objections have been offered.

married at Edinburgh on the 15th day of june 1840 by the Rev. Thomas Liddell, minister of Lady Glenorchy's Chapel.

We are sure this is the right marriage so thought the new occupants of the two addresses in 1841 census might offer a clue - but how to search on address only?

Now as to the BDM for the birth of their seventh (?) child Donald on 12th June 1855 the cert. reads that "issue was 4 boys and 2 girls all living and that he was the seventh. It further confirms right age for parents and marriage in Edinburgh.

Christina the mother then dies some 8 days later on the 20th June 1855 and the cert. shows issue Christina 11 or 12,William 7,Andrew 5 1/2, Margaret 4 ,James Hector 1 3/4 and donald 10days which makes just six children. Did the registrar just make a mistake - certainly the age shown for the mother on this cert is wrong and is actually that of her husband.

As you may remember part of the problem here is that no OPRs exist for any of the children born before 1855 which may be because they were part of a different church.

So going back to the original point there may be one additional child but he is not mentioned in 1855 by name and there was still quite a big gap from the marriage until the first (?) child in 1843/4.

Any thoughts would be welcome.

Bob and Bryony

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:05 pm

You can check who was living at Writers Court (no numbers given) in 1841 at FREECEN http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Enter Writers Court in the address box and choose Midlothian as Census County. Nobody obvious so I would imagine he was boarding there. There are a couple of Ross males but they were born at Midlothian.

It looks as though Christina was employed by the family at 69 Queen Street. The women who don't have the family name are female servants.

Patrick Dalmahay 40 Writer to The Signet
Anna Dalmahay 27
Joan Dalmahay 70
James Dalmahay 41
Mary Dalmahay 7
Jane Dalmahay 5
Louisa Dalmahay 4
Anna Dalmahay 2
Patrick Dalmahoy 8 Mo
Janet Young 30
Jemima McIntyre 19
Margaret Brown 27
Margaret Adams 20
Margaret Proven 17

Regards,
Annette

bobandbryony · Post by **bobandbryony** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:25 pm

You really are all fantastic - we didn't quite understand before about freecen but it really is a valuable tool.
thanks again
Bob and Bryony

Ann In the UK · Post by **Ann In the UK** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:49 pm

issue was 4 boys and 2 girls all living and that he was the seventh. marriage until the first (?) child in 1843/4.

Going back to my earlier comments, if I'm following this correctly:

They were married in 1840, but they had their first child in '43/44/45. And they subsequently had 6/7?

Three, to five years was a very long time to wait for a first child, in those days, especially if they then went on to have 7 children in 11 or so years (which fits roughly with an average 2 years between each child, which was the norm). I'd suggest there were at least two other pregnancies prior to the first known one and perhaps even one more between Christina (aged 11 or 12) and William aged (7) .

The term 'all living' is quite a canny one. It could infer that, although a child or two was born alive, it didn't survive beyond the first few months. Or it could mean there were several others who were not 'living'.

Miscarried pregnancies wouldn't be recorded, even if they were late into the pregnancy.

I don't think still births were either, even if they went to term (I'm sure someone will correct me on that).

A child who was born alive, but out of wedlock, or too soon after a marriage, who subsequently died was probably quite easy to hide from officals/family/ the neighbours.

And a child given up to the foundling home is the least likely to appear anywhere on an official document, even if the parent's went on to marry and have other children.

But all of these children may still have been acknowledged by the parents at some point.

Just out of curiosity, do you know what Christina's occupation was in those early years?

Ann