Death at Sea 1881

[Pandabean]

Hi all,

I was looking into my Whitecross family and I came across the following Will and was wondering if there was a way to find out details about it? I havent paid for the will as I doubt it would give me more info regarding his death.

1 WHITECROSS PETER 15/03/1882 BUILDER, NORTH BERWICK, COUNTY OF HADDINGTON, D. 18/04/1881 AT SEA, ON HIS PASSAGE FROM MELBOURNE, AUSTRALIA, TO SCOTLAND, TESTATE HADDINGTON SHERIFF COURT SC40/40/23

I can't see a death record so I wonder if the death was registered in Australia. Would that be likely?

Cheers,
Andy

[emanday]

Hi Andy,

Had a look on FindMyPast and found this.

Folio number 5061: Peter Whitecross age 30 died of Phthisis 18/4/81 on the ship Orient, registered number 82254. The list was received at the registrar on 17/6/81

Dates fit. Is this any help?

[Currie]

Hello Mary & Andy,

Where did that record come from Mary, was it English Marine Deaths held by the GRO or was it Registrar General of Shipping and Seamen data? Would you please be so kind as to see if the death of my GGGrandmother Harriet Thornton died 11 June 1878 on the Garonne is recorded there.

The Peter Whitecross death should normally be in the Minor Records on SP if he was identified as Scottish by whoever did the paperwork regarding his death. Very often the paperwork just wasn’t fully done although in this case the ships captain appears to have done his part. The info in that record would be all that is available. Marine death records had just the very basics, more like an English death certificate and nothing like a Scottish one. See http://www.nmm.ac.uk/researchers/librar ... me-records

Here’s his departure from Australia. He is on two passenger lists and appears to have missed the Cotopaxi, which departed Melbourne on 31 March, and sailed on the Orient which departed 12 April.
WHITECROSS P A COTOPAXI II MAR 1881 LONDON MAR 1881 004
WHITECROSS P A ORIENT APR 1881 LONDON VIA ADELAIDE SUEZ & NAPLES APR 1881 004
http://proarchives.imagineering.com.au/ ... esults.asp

Progress of the Royal Mail Steamer Orient from various newspapers:

April 12 - Steamship Orient left Melbourne
April 14 - RMS Orient left Adelaide for London via Suez
May 9 - Steamship Orient arrived Suez
May 10 - RMS Orient left Pt. Said for Naples, Plymouth & London.
May 16 - RMS Orient passed Gibraltar.
May 21 - RMS Orient passed Gravesend on way to docks.

He died only 4 days out of Adelaide, probably only a few hundred miles to the West of Perth, Western Australia, which wasn’t a port of call. No doubt buried at sea in the vicinity. My G. G. Grandmother died in 1878 near Aden on the Orient steamer Garonne on a voyage from Australia to England and was buried at sea. Her death was mentioned in a newspaper because the ship had run ashore and was in some peril. A letter from the captain described what had happened and mentioned the deaths of a number of passengers by surname. Fortunately for me her family put a death notice in their local newspaper with the date and place of death.

Hope that helps,
Alan

[emanday]

Hi Alan,

I got the info on FindMyPast in Deaths at Sea.

As to your Harriet Thornton?

Well, the only Thornton death on the Garonne in 1878 was a Sarah Thornton's death which was recorded in Marine Deaths on the Garonne in 1878, Vol 64 Page 116, but not a Harriet.

Sarah's death on the Garonne in 11 June 1878 (so the dates match) was also recorded in the Deaths at Sea, folio 3051. This time the ship's number, 65855, is given and cause of death is Apoplexy. Her age is given as 64. Two of the people also listed apparently drowned.

The Deaths at Sea and Marine Deaths records are often different versions of the same event.

I should mention that this entry started out as Saml., but was scored out and Sarah entered. Don't know the signifigance of this.

Any help?

[Pandabean]

Mary & Alan,

Thanks very much for the info. Its been very helpful. Unfortunately there is nothing in the minor records on SP, at least I have what I need and I will hopefully see if East Lothian Studies centre can find a newspaper article as it turns out Peter is the son of John Whitecross who was a magistrate for North Berwick in the mid 1800s, so it may well be reported. I might try the Scotsman archive as well as I have had a few hits on Whitecross that may be relevant to this family.

Mary the info you gave mentions a folio? Is there more data than what you have there or would that be it?

I still wonder why he would have went to Aus... hmm one thing to think about.

Thanks all,
Andy

[emanday]

Mary the info you gave mentions a folio? Is there more data than what you have there or would that be it?

Thank you for making me take another look at them.

So - bit of a correction I couldn't see the page headings, so I said the references were Vol and Page number. I assumed that first number was the Vol number. Actually it was the person's age!

So, Peter Whitecross age 30 died of Phthisis 18/4/81 on the ship Orient, registered number 82254. The list was received at the registrar on 17/6/81. Folio number 5061 Page 135

And, Sarah Thornton was aged 64 and the reference to obtain a death cert would be Folio 3051 Page 116.

To get the folio number AND page number and the date of death in FindMyPast you have to look on both British Deaths Overseas AND Deaths at Sea. I've been using FMP for several years now and never realised that these two sets of records were that different.

[Currie]

Thanks very much for that Mary,

It definitely must be her. She would have been headed for London to stay with her son-in-law & daughter. If she was alone on the voyage and the passenger list didn’t have her full name maybe they asked other passengers as to their memory of it. Died of a Stroke it seems. For interest see hereunder for Captains letter and newspaper notice I mentioned previously. It looks like the Garonne dropped off quite a few passengers early and Mrs Thornton died the same day they arrived at Aden. If she was in fact buried at sea it must have been pretty close to Aden.

Andy, I saw an arrival in Melbourne on the Potosi in 1880 for a Peter Whitecross. There seems to be a fair bit of Whitecross activity in the State of Victoria. On this page you’ll see the shipping links http://www.access.prov.vic.gov.au/publi ... ide023.jsp There are also some Will and Probate records and all or some of them are free to view.

If you end up chasing family there you can see the whole of the available Victoria BDM index for Whitecross here https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/CA257 ... ndexes~&3=~ If you tick all 3 boxes you’ll see there are only 97 events. Birth and Deaths include parents names and you can assemble families just using the index data. It should cost less than A$5 for all that.

Other places you’ll find Victorian Whitecrosses.
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/record ... index.aspx
http://www.awm.gov.au/research/people/n ... /index.asp

For other States see http://www.coraweb.com.au/ and the stickys in the Australian section of the Forum.

All the best,
Alan


P.S.
22 July, 1878, Melbourne Argus.
The following extract from a letter received by Messrs. J. Stilling and Co., from Captain De Steiger, commander of the steamship Garonne, dated Aden, June 12, has been sent to the South Australian Register for publication:—“On June 6, at 25 minutes past 10 p.m., the steamer ran on shore in South Bay, Ras Hafun, and remained until noon on the 9th June, when she was got off and proceeded to Aden without injury. I telegraphed to Sydney the steamer’s arrival. On the 8th of June some passengers went ashore in a lifeboat to see if water was to be had in case of landing, but in coming off the boat capsized, and Messrs. W. F. Sowerby and George Boyce, second-class passengers, were drowned. The body of the latter was recovered and buried. On the 7th of June I sent away a boat to Aden, manned by the second officer, six A.B.’s, and a passenger volunteer, Captain M’Gowan. The boat has not arrived yet. The Government send to-morrow two steamers to look for the missing boat, which was provisioned for 14 days, and could scarcely have arrived yet unless picked up by a steamer. On the 11th of June I arrived at Aden, and wired Sydney agents at half-past 10 p.m. In addition to the death of Mr. Maclaren, who died of bronchitis, to the deep grief of all the saloon passengers, Mrs Thornton, a second-class passenger from Sydney, and Bridget M’Mahon, a third-class passenger, have also died on the voyage. We are now about to proceed on the voyage. The weather is very hot and trying, and consequently we are anxious to go on quickly into a more temperate climate, so I do not wait for the boat.” It will be remembered that the missing boat referred to arrived safely at Galle.

22 July, 1878, Sydney Morning Herald.
THORNTON. — June 11, at Aden, on board the Garonne, en route for London, Harriet Matilda, relict of the late Sydney Thornton, and dearly beloved mother of Thomas, William, Sydney, and Sylvester Thornton, also of Mrs. J. R. Hutton of New Zealand; Mrs. C. H. Sippe of London; and Mrs. J. B. Hall of Sydney, leaving a large circle of friends and relatives to mourn their loss, aged 67 years.

[emanday]

Happy to help. Interesting reading, Alan.

Your conclusion that other passengers may not have known Harriet's first name fits in with the protocol of the day (and even while my own grandmother was still alive, come to that) of even fairly close acquaintances using Mr Smith or Miss/Mrs/Mistress Smith instead of today's habit of using the first name.

My great grandfather was washed overboard in the Bay of Biscay in 1899, on the way to Italy. Although I obtained a copy of the report made to the British consulate in Italy with the crew list info from the Newfoundland people, I have never succeeded in finding his death on FMP on either Deaths at Sea or British Deaths Overseas.

Yours and Andy's popped up as though they were sitting waiting for me!

Typical

[Pandabean]

Well I gave in and went and bought the will....thats what happens when you have a wallet near the computer. But it didnt tell me much more although it did reveal more about the family and their business. I got 29 hits on Whitecross for that site so some family may have moved over.

Interesting reading Alan.

As for the Australian archives I did check the Whitecross and found a handful of them, besides Peter I think there was one other possible. One interesting thing is that Peter was a master builder and was part of the family business Peter Whitecross & Sons in North Berwick, so I wonder if he went over for potential work.

[Currie]

Hello Andy,

There’s a death notice in the Glasgow Herald in 1898 for a John Runciman Whitecross. Have you seen it? Added to it is a request “Australian and Cape papers please copy”. The Whitecrosses in North Berwick apparently want someone in those places to know about his death.

Alan