Why would a family change its name?

kirsty140123 · Post by **kirsty140123** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:53 pm

Hi Everyone!

I'm new to all this but really need help/ advice from anyone wiling to give it...

My puzzle is my great grandfather and there are 3 puzzles...

His name is Robert Condie (DOB 26/03/1859 - Airdrie) and he married Mary Ann Fraser (DOB 03/01/1868) on the 14th June 1889.

My first puzzle lies in the 1891 census where he is listed as a prisoner of Barlinnie Prison, Glasgow with occupation listed as a 'puddler'. I've tried in vain to find out what he was imprisoned for but with no luck, I've checked every possible route I can think of with no luck from my family and can't find anything in the National Archives. I even emaile Barlinnie Prison but with no luck. Can anyone shine a light on any other possible routes to follow to try and work this out?

My second puzzle comes with the family name, somewhere between my great grand mother (Mary Ann Fraser) dying on the 01/01/1907 and my grand father George Paterson Condie marrying Elizabeth Millar Wortherspoon Meikle(DOB 05/06/1903) (marriage 23/08/1921) the family name changes from Condie to Fraser??? My grandfathers birth cert states George Paterson Condie (DOB 05/09/1897) but marriage cert states George Paterson Fraser and grooms father is Robert Fraser NOT Condie??? My dad told me before he passed away he didn't know anything about the name Condie until an old aunt slipped up and then clammed up and would not discuss the subject any further. My dad has since passed and so has the family members who may have known anything about it.. So my question is can any one point me in the right direction with this one?

Ok last puzzle....because of the whole name changing thing I can't find a death cert for my great grandfather Robert Condie/ Fraser i've spent so many hours/ days/ weeks/MONTHs trying to find this an no success...HELP PLEASE!

Really now regret not getting into the family tree while my dad was here as he would no doubt have been able to help me but now I turn to anyone who reads this...any help with so greatly be appreciated.

A very desperate Kirsty xx

Post by **AnneM** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:37 pm

Hi Kirsty

When is the last sighting you have of your great grandfather Robert using the name Condie. There is a Robert Condie charged with attempted murder in 1919 in the records in NAS. He is however a spirit merchant in Motherwell and was found not guilty by reason of insanity. Probably not him but it would account for the wiping of his name out by the family. Something appears to have happened to make them disown him for whatever reason. Given the aunt clamming up it may have been something a bit disreputable.

Have you found Robert in the 1911 census or the 1901. What was his occupation in either of those? If your family was always known as Fraser how did you work out the Condie connection?

Anne

BTW Welcome to TS!!!

WilmaM · Post by **WilmaM** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:05 pm

My grandfathers birth cert states George Paterson Condie (DOB 05/09/1897)

What is the father's name on here?

Could he have been adopted by a Fraser family?

On Mary Ann Fraser's Death cert does it say married to or widow of? that helps narrow down a start point for her husband's death.

Census information helps narrow things down too.

Post by **AnneM** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:07 pm

Mary Ann is stated to be wife of and the informant is Robert, husband. I've had a look for him in 1911 but been unable to find him. Maybe Kirsty has him then.

Anne

kirsty140123 · Post by **kirsty140123** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:27 pm

Hi Anne

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. I'm pretty sure the 1919 robert condie is't the right one as I've traced my family moving from Airdrie/ Bellshill area into Kinning Park Glasgow then to Renfrewshire where the majority of the family is now. I'm no 100% sure about the 1911 census as I can't make a match, I know he's going by the family name Condie in the 1901 census where he is named as a brassfinisher and I've worked out it's somewhere between 1907 - 1921 that he's changed the name to my great grand mothers maiden name because she died 1907 and on her death cert he is listed as husband - robert condie but by 1921 it's Fraser and the whole family has changed from condie to fraser.

My dad told me roughly 10 - 12 years ago in one of those 'oh by the way did I ever tell you....' conversations. He said he found out when he started to trace the family tree back in the 70's/ 80's and went to speak to 2 of his aunties in Blainfield. One started telling him he would become stuck because of the name changing but couldn't offer much more han that while the other aunt refused to speak about it and my dad's work came to a hault after that. I've put out feelers to family members but no one seems to know why the name changed. One theory was my grandfather George wanting to join the army at 14 and lying that he was 16 and getting away with it by changing his name but I don't know if there's any truth in that at all or how he would have got away with it or why the whole family would then change name not just robert? It's seriously frying my brain and with my nature I won't let it go til I know the answer lol

Thank you for taking the time to have a look at NAS

Kirsty

Post by **AnneM** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:32 pm

Hi Kirsty

What were your grandfather's siblings called and what do they appear as on their marriages? Where are they in 1901? I can't see them anywhere.

Anne

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:33 pm

Hello Kirsty and welcome to Talking Scot.

A bit of a deviation to your query.

On Robert's marriage entry who does he give as his parents?

I'm asking as I believe you have the wrong birthdate for him.

This looks like him in 1881 at Quarry Road, Old Monkland -

Agnes Condie 55
David Condie 26
Robt Condie 19 Iron Work Puddler

And a probable birth -

ROBERT CONDIE

Birth:
28 MAY 1861 New Monkland, Lanark, Scotland

Parents:
Father: DAVID CONDIE Family
Mother: AGNES NEILSON

Regards,
Annette

kirsty140123 · Post by **kirsty140123** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:34 pm

Mary Ann Fraser died 1st Jan 1907 and her name on death cert is Mary Ann Condie (nee Fraser) and Robert Condie as Husband

George Paterson Condie DOB 5th Sept 1897 Mother Mary Ann Condie (Fraser) and Father Robert Condie

I know he has passed away somewhere from Aug 1921 onwards as he has signed as a witness on Georges marrisage cert as father

Definately not an adoption as I have been able to find certs for births deaths marriages for others just can't find death of robert that matches a condie or fraser but I would assume fraser when the whole family has changed the name AFTER the mothers death?

Kirsty

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:36 pm

Hello again Kirsty,

Just seen your new post.

The Robert Condie - Brass Finisher and Robert Condie - Puddler are 2 different people.

kirsty140123 · Post by **kirsty140123** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:40 pm

Siblings of Robert are

William Condie 1855
Magdaline Bird Condie 1861

Parents

Willaim Condie 1833 - 1888
Jane Orr 1830 - 1863

ther are also half siblings as William remarries after Jane Orr's death but it is only Robert who changes the name from Condie to Fraser after the death of his wife...all children of Robert and Mary are born Condie and then as far as I can find after Mary's death Robert and children change from Condie to Fraser

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