Mothers name, Bullen or Dickenson ? Help !

[Tracey]

Hello all,

I have lost my way a bit with regard to family research for quite some time now and I have been stuck as to what to do. I realise that some things will never be resolved but I also know that some things take years to unravel.

Here is my list so far of things I would like to ask help in solving.
I have a gt gt grandmother who I know nothing of before her marriage.
My gt grandmothers husband who’s death I cant find.
And a sister of my gt grandmother who just has one of those names everyone in the area seems to have and I cant find her past a census.

But firstly.....................
My great grandmother Ellen or Helen Fox was born c 1877 Salford Lancashire. On her Scottish marriage certificates she names her parents as Richard Fox and Eliza Bullen. These names are not on her death certificate as she died in England.
I have in the past been in contact with others researching the family in the census below and and they have told me the mother is Eliza Dickenson. There is no marriage of a Richard Fox and Eliza / Elizabeth Bullen that I have found. I have found two Eliza Bullens but the years are way out to fit this family.

There is a death of an Eliza Fox that matches age and location in 1890 which should give fathers name.
I am just slightly confused by the Bullen / Dickenson sir name. Have I got the right census / family ?. I cant find anything closer.
Not quite sure what I am asking here other than confirmation I am looking in the right direction !

This is what I have.................
Birth England
Searching Lancashire BMD for Ellen or Helen this is the only one in Salford searching 1876 - 84
1877 Ellen Fox Salford Regent Road (this is the one I am more inclined to order)
FreeBMD
1876 Ellen Fox Salford + one in Manchester 1877 and nothing under Helen.

There is nothing on Lancashire OnLine Parish Clerks or LDS.


Marriages Scotland
Marriage 1
1897 age 20 = Birth year 1877
Parents Richard Fox City Porter and Eliza Fox m.s Bullen (deceased)
Marriage 2
1908 age 24 = Birth year 1884
(husbands birth year was 1886) Parents same as above but both deceased.

Died 1946 age 67 = Birth year 1879 No parents noted as she died in England

Below are the closest census according to the information that match fathers name and occupation. The mother Eliza is the one a few are telling me had the maiden name Dickenson according to some of the children’s births found recorded at Manchester Cathedral.


Census
1881
Name: Ellen Fox
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Richard
Mother's Name: Eliza
Gender: Female
Where born: Salford, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: Back of 31 Yorkshire St
Registration district: Salford
Sub registration district: Regent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Household Members: Name Age
Eliza Fox 48 Wife Salford
Eliza Ann Fox 13 Daughter Salford
Ellen Fox 4 Daughter Salford
Mary Fox 7 Daughter Salford
Richard Fox 45 Head (B.S.), The Netherlands Warehouse Porter
Richard Fox 17 Son Salford Labourer
William Fox 10 Son Salford
Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 3964; Folio: 50; Page: 11; Line: ; GSU roll: 1341946.

1891
Name: Ellen Fox
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Richard
Gender: Female
Where born: Salford, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Salford
Ecclesiastical parish: Sacred Trinity
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 2 Barlows Court
Occupation: ? Spinner
Condition as to marriage:
Registration district: Salford
Sub registration district: Regent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Richard Fox 58 Widow Head Grey Cloth Porter Upholland Lancashire
William Fox 20 Son Furnishers Labourer Salford
Mary Fox 17 Daughter Cotton Weaver Salford
Ellen Fox 14 Daughter ? Spinner Salford
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 3219; Folio 41; Page 16; GSU roll: 6098329.

In 1861 Eliza the mother is age 28 living at Barlows Court
In 1871 Eliza is aged 38 living at Barlows Court. I wondered if it was possible Ellen had a different mother but it looks unlikely.

1901
Name: Helen Casey
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1876
Relationship: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: England
Registration Number: 644/2
Registration district: Camlachie
Civil Parish: Glasgow Camlachie
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 26 Crownpoint Rd
ED: 36
Household schedule number: 149
Line: 18
Roll: CSSCT1901_269
Household Members: Name Age
Helen Casey 25 Head England
Matthew Casey 9 Boarder Glasgow Scholar
Annie Casey 11 Boarder Glasgow Scholar
Helen Casey 5 Daughter Glasgow
Source Citation: Parish: Glasgow Camlachie; ED: 36; Page: 29; Line: 18; Roll: CSSCT1901_269; Year: 1901.
1901 CAMLACHIE GLASGOW/LANARK 644/02 036/02 029

1911 census Aberdeen age 29 = Birth Year 1882

Any thought you may have would be welcome to wake up this confused head.

Thank you.

[trish1]

Hi Tracey

I did spend some time trying to trace your family - but only seemed to find a couple of related items that don't seem to resolve any issues. Either the 1851 or 1861 (or both) for some of the Manchester area are not easily available (family history online used to have transcripts - maybe it is now on FMP). Anyhow - I found a probable in 1871, which helps to explain that the Netherlands is really Upholland (that was some creative transcription in 1881, if you look at the original) - it has a much older son John - who I can't find before or after - I was wondering if he was a step son, given the age of Richard (& Richard being some years older than his wife). I also found 2 * Richard Fox born in Upholland which was annoying as the "other" one seems easier to find.

1871 Salford Lancashire
Richard Fox head mar 32 Warehouse porter Lancashire Wigan
Eliza Fox wife mar 38 Lancashire Salford
John do son Unm 16 fettler at iron works do Manchester
Richard do son 8 scholar do salford
Elizabeth do dau 2 -- do do
(This Richard looks to be very young when son John was born)

I found this marriage FreeBDM Marriage Jun 1859 Fox Richard Manchester 8d 392 Dickenson Eliza 8d 392 but no sign of an Eliza Bullen marriage that suited - although I didn't check all the possibilities for a remarriage. If John on the above census was from a previous marriage, or born before a marriage the marriage fits with the above 1871. The marriage is also on the Lancashire BDM which usually provides multiple entries if either party has more than one name listed.

There are a number of baptisms from the Cathedral on the IGI - none have the mother's surname - and some of the children are not on the 1871 census - so they either died as babes or belong to a different couple.

What I haven't done yet is tried to trace any of the siblings - some of their birth/marriage certs may have some different information?

Trish

[SarahND]

Hi Trish and Tracey,
I also found that census with the older son John and then thought I had found a likely Eliza and John in 1861... but the link on Ancestry is to the wrong image and I can't find the correct one So here is the transcription as far as it goes without looking at the image:

1861
Regent Road, Salford, Lancashire
Eliza Fox, Wife, 28, born Manchester
John Fox, Son, 7, born Salford
Mary E Fox, Daughter, 10 months, born Salford

So where is Richard? There is a Richard, age 23, born Upholland (i.e. "Netherlands" ) with his parents Henry and Alice and brothers Edward and Henry in Upholland. Is this your "other" Richard that you found, Trish? He's a coal miner so is probably the wrong one.

There is an Eliza Bullen of the right age in Regent Road, Salford in 1841:

Ellen Bullen, 35, born in county
George Bullen, 28, Cotton Spinner, born outside county
Sarah Bullen, 9, born in county
Eliza Bullen, 9, born in county
John Bullen, 3, born in county
Hannah Facy(?), 55, (can't make out occupation), born in Scotland

George and Ellen are still there in 1851, with two younger daughters: Elizabeth age 8 and Ellen age 6. No sign of Eliza.

There is, however, an Eliza Dickinson of the right age in Salford in 1851 A lodger... one of those damaged census pages.

Sorry this is not really helping But I want you to know I'm trying!

Sarah

[Tracey]

Hello Trish

Thanks for responding.

Sorry, I should have posted those census for Eliza. I thought it quite funny that the person taking the census put Holland as i imagined he was probably from the area (or maybe not !).

1861
Name: Eliza Fox
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Relation: Wife
Gender: Female
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Salford
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
Town: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: Bonsons Court
Occupation: Cotton Spinner
Condition as to marriage: married
Registration district: Salford
Sub registration district: Regent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 197
Household Members: Name Age
Eliza Fox 28
John Fox 7 Son Scholar Salford Lancashire
Mary E Fox 10 Mo Daughter Salford Lancashire
Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 2919; Folio: 68; Page: 38; GSU roll: 543050

1871
Name: Eliza Fox
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Richard
Gender: Female
Where born: Salford, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Salford
Ecclesiastical parish: Trinity
Town: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Registration district: Salford
Sub registration district: Regent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 86
Richard Fox 32 Head Warehouse Porter Wigan, Lancashire
Eliza Fox 38 Wife Salford
John Fox 16 Son ? at Iron Works Salford
Richard Fox 8 Scholar Salford
Elizabeth Fox 2 Daughter Salford
Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 4021; Folio: 60; Page: 16; GSU roll: 846321.

Richard is the one i cant find in 1861.

I have been passed information on some of the above siblings but that says the mother was Eliza Dickenson.
I have also been through Lancashire BMD and FBMD more than once and only have the marriage with Eliza Dickenson.
Richard Fox possibly died 1904
Eliza poss on FBMD 1890

I dont know why epect anyone to know the mothers sir name ! I suppose i just need confirmation that this is the closest to my gt grandmother Ellen or Helen on the census as there is no other i can find. I ony have the two certs to go on on which i assume she gave the information ?.

Thanks for your time - again

[trish1]

Hi Sarah and Tracey

I didn't find the 1861 - quite interesting - perhaps the birth certificate or baptism for Mary E may shed some light? Richard would have only been about 15 when John was conceived - I do wonder if that one is his? (although I have researched a family from that area when everyone seemed to marry at 16 - have 10 children and die before they were 50 - presumably the coal environment).

I did find the 1841 Sarah (I think the last lass was a FS if I have the same one) - and wondered about it - Eliza Bullen seems to have morphed into Eliza Dickenson.

I also found the coal miner Richard - he seems to be the one who married Catherine - has some children with very different names in (I think) 1881 - so I gave him away as a possible. I might go back and check given that Richard and Eliza are not together in 1861.

Trish

[Tracey]

Hello ladies (sorry Sarah i got late notifactin of your post)

This is the only one i have on record to hand

Baptisms: 7 Apr 1861 Sacred Trinity, Salford, Lancashire, England
Mary Ellin Fox - Child of Richard Fox & Eliz
Abode: 6 Worseley St.
Occupation: Smith
Baptised by: Ed.A Owen
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1864, Page 162, Entry 1294
Source: LDS Film 2356038

But the age is out or maybe this Mary died.

(Research):1861
Name: Mary E Fox
Age: 10 Mo
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Eliza
Gender: Female
Where born: Salford, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Salford
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
Town: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: Bonsons Court
Registration district: Salford
Sub registration district: Regent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Househol Eliza Fox 28
John Fox 7 Son Scholar Salford Lancashire
Mary E Fox 10 Mo Daughter Salford Lancashire
Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 2919; Folio: 68; Page: 38; GSU roll: 543050.

Cant find the above census in my files for the above in 1871


1881
Name: Mary Fox
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Richard
Mother's Name: Eliza
Gender: Female
Where born: Salford, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: Back of 31 Yorkshire St
Registration district: Salford
Sub registration district: Regent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Eliza Fox 48 Wife Salford
Eliza Ann Fox 13 Daughter Salford
Ellen Fox 4 Daughter Salford
Mary Fox 7 Daughter Salford
Richard Fox 45 Head (B.S.), The Netherlands Warehouse Porter
Richard Fox 17 Son Salford Labourer
William Fox 10 Son Salford
Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 3964; Folio: 50; Page: 11; Line: ; GSU roll: 1341946.


1891
Name: Mary Fox
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Richard
Gender: Female
Where born: Salford, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Salford
Ecclesiastical parish: Sacred Trinity
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 2 Barlows Court
Occupation: Cotton Weaver
Condition as to marriage: Unmarried
Registration district: Salford
Sub registration district: Regent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Richard Fox 58 Widow Head Grey Cloth Porter Upholland Lancashire
William Fox 20 Son Furnishers Labourer
Mary Fox 17 Daughter Cotton Weaver Salford
Ellen Fox 14 Daughter ? Spinner Salford
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 3219; Folio 41; Page 16; GSU roll: 6098329.

[trish1]

Its a baptism Tracey - so could be the right one, baptised at 10 months perhaps - FreeBDM Births Jun 1860 Fox Mary Ellen Salford 8d 29 Fox Mary Ellen Salford 8d 91 - they are both on lancashire BDM - different sub districts
There is a death for Mary Ellen - Dec 1861 (not yet on lancs BDM)

I wonder which baptisms supposedly show the mother's maiden name - because none are on the IGI - which usually provides same if available. Wonder if it is worth getting a film from the LDS? When I look that up on the IGI I get a completely different reference - in a batch that is supposedly 1700s - comes from a book - not a film it would seem.

Trish

[Currie]

Here’s a summary of an article in the Manchester Times, Saturday, July 31, 1880. Richard Fox, of 31, Yorkshire-street, Salford, and James Lindsay, of Broughton Lane, were summoned for getting up to some funny business with regard to a horse race. It all happened near the Lord Nelson Inn in Chapel-street and the sleuth was Detective Spibey who had concealed himself inside Trinity Church. The Magistrate, J. Makinson, fined Fox ₤5 or 30 days while Lindsay got about double that.

All the best,
Alan

[Tracey]

Thank you very much for that Alan. I should look at searchng newspapers but not sure where to start past the British Library and then i get confused.

I have taken out a sub to Ancestry to go over census ect just to double check on any Ellen / Helen that there may be (but i still cant see a better candidate) before i go ahead and waste money on birth certs. Has this site changed since i last subbed !...the search results seem to be a nightmare to whittle down unless you know exact dates and if you knew that you wouldnt be looking

Deep breaths..................

[trish1]

Hi Tracey

Couple of things with ancestry - go to the "search all records" page - and select the old search. Then tick the boxes for exact matches only - that gets rid of 90% of the so called "matches. Ancestry thinks quantity is better than quality which becomes annoying.

When searching the scotland census on ancestry do them one at a time - sometimes the indexes are completely out when searching multiple census records - seems to work most of the time for England but not Scotland.

Also less detail is sometimes better - birthplace does not always seem to work - I just use a name & manually search the result list for place of birth. You can search by given name only - sometimes useful. I found tonight that a search gave NO result if I included a date range - without the date it found the record I wanted - weird??

If you are searching English bmds - use Freebdm in preference to ancestry for the early dates - Freebdm also goes past 1915 which is the ancestry cutoff (after which it uses its own indexes) - for marriages you can search for both parties on Freebdm - only works post 1912 on ancestry.

Trish