Well no WONDER!

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ninatoo
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Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:42 am
Location: Australia

Well no WONDER!

Post by ninatoo » Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:07 am

Hi everyone,

I had been searching for an ancestor at Ancestry.com, trying to find his whereabouts in the 1901 census (to no avail). He seems to disappear from 1891 to 1918, when he marries. Not in IReland either. So I searched in the other records Ancestry.com hold, and browsed their Military records.

The ancestor's name is distinct, Cluny Carson. I couldn't find him, so I just searched for the surname...and up came a John Carson. Since I have that name in my tree, I clicked on it for a look, and there, as clear as can be, was the service record for CLUNY Carson, mistranscribed as John. It looks NOTHING like John. It is clearly Cluny. So I made an amendment note on the site, and thought how lucky I was.

So getting carried away, I decided to see if I could find any more military records for other ancestors. As some of the women had chosen Carson as their child's middle name, I just searched for the forename Carson. The very first record on the list said Carson Cluny. :shock: Yep, it was him again, surname and forename reversed! I was so lucky to find that one, because it confirmed that it actually was him, as he had lied about his age by twenty years on enlistment. The pension record stated his real age of 49. Just goes to show you....the record you need might be there, but just not where you expect it to be!

Nina
Researching: Easton ( Renfrewshire, Dunbarton and Glasgow), Corr (Londonderry and Glasgow), Carson (Co. Down, Irvine, Ayrshire and Glasgow), Logan (Londonderry and Glasgow)

Currie
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Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:20 am
Location: Australia

Re: Well no WONDER!

Post by Currie » Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:53 am

Well Nina, they got the 4th letter right so that’s not bad going.

Unfortunately about two thirds of British Army WW1 Service records were destroyed during WW2 bombing so you’re lucky to find one for him. Soldiers who went overseas received campaign medals and appear on medal rolls. You can search for these at TNA as well as at Ancestry but the Ancestry ones are better, as the back of the card, which sometimes contains extra info, has also been scanned. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... i=D1714102

The Glasgow Herald, November 15, 1892, has a report about a Cluny Carson, a well-known football player, being fined at Irvine Burgh Police court for assaulting a policeman etc.

Then in the same newspaper, November 19, 1895, occupation iron forger, he’s again at Irvine Police Court being fined for assault,

And lastly, in the Scotsman, September 3, 1901, he’s back at Irvine Police Court, again for assault.

If it’s him, as seems likely, then he appears to have still been in the vicinity of Irvine up to 1901 census time, unless he was in the lockup somewhere.

All the best,
Alan

ninatoo
Posts: 1231
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:42 am
Location: Australia

Re: Well no WONDER!

Post by ninatoo » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:21 am

Wow! A well-known football player? I've not come across that before! It seems the Carsons had more than a few problems with their fists....his brother, my gg grandfather Thomas Carson got into more than a few scuffles himself, as well as problems with his butcher business being sequestered, with the case going over quite a few years. Off to search for Cluny in the Glasgow Herald!

Thanks so much!

Nina
Researching: Easton ( Renfrewshire, Dunbarton and Glasgow), Corr (Londonderry and Glasgow), Carson (Co. Down, Irvine, Ayrshire and Glasgow), Logan (Londonderry and Glasgow)

ninatoo
Posts: 1231
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:42 am
Location: Australia

Re: Well no WONDER!

Post by ninatoo » Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:45 am

Thanks for the references Alan,

It seems Cluny had a temper alright! I can't see the Scotsman, as I don't have a subscription. But those articles are very useful, and have given me more of a picture of the man. I am hoping to find out more about his football career too! Thanks again!

Nina
Researching: Easton ( Renfrewshire, Dunbarton and Glasgow), Corr (Londonderry and Glasgow), Carson (Co. Down, Irvine, Ayrshire and Glasgow), Logan (Londonderry and Glasgow)

AndrewP
Site Admin
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Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 1:36 am
Location: Edinburgh

Re: Well no WONDER!

Post by AndrewP » Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:50 pm

Hi Nina,

Here are the documents of Cluny and his wife that I could find existence or belief of:
  • 18?? birth, Ireland - not found
    1871 census - not found
    1881 census, Irvine - Clowney Carson, age 14, born Ireland
    1891 census, Irvine - Cluny Carson, age 20, born Ireland
    1901 census - not found
    1911 census - not found
    1918 marriage - Cluny Carson, bachelor, age 52, to Maggie Paton or Campbell, widow, age 48
    1923? poorhouse record, Irvine - Cluny Carson, age 56
    1948 death, Irvine - Cluney Carson, age 77
One possibility to consider for the 1901 census - that was at the time of the second Boer War (1899-1902), so Cluny could have been away fighting for Queen/King and Country.

It looks like Cluny's marriage was not known to the informant at his death, who described himself as an occupier, so presumably was unrelated to Cluny. His death place was a hospital, which some years previously had been the Cunninghame Combination Poorhouse. Both of their ages varied from the expected on different documents at different times.
  • 1866 birth, Stevenston - Margaret Paton
    1871 census Bothwell (Holytown) LKS - Margaret Paton, age 5
    1881 census, Irvine - Margaret Paton, age 15, born Stevenston, servant in the Dick family household
    1885 marriage, Irvine - Margaret Paton, age 20, to Peter Blair, age 25
    1891 census, Irvine - Margaret Blair, age 23, born Stevenson; with husband and 2 sons
    1901 census - not found
    1901 divorce - Peter Blair, Irvine and Margaret Paton or Blair, Glasgow
    1903 marriage Glasgow (Partick) - Maggie Paton (formerly married to Peter Blair), age 34 to WIlliam Campbell, age 33
    1911 census - not found
    1915 death, Glasgow - of William Campbell, age 40
    1918 marriage, Glasgow - Maggie Paton or Campbell, widow, age 48, to Cluny Carson, bachelor, age 52
    1941 death, Glasgow - Maggie Campbell, age 68, widow of William Campbell (informant, William Campbell)
So it looks like Maggie's first and third marriages were not spoken of in her family.

You may be able to fill in some of the blanks.

All the best,

AndrewP

Currie
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Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:20 am
Location: Australia

Re: Well no WONDER!

Post by Currie » Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:57 pm

Hello Nina,

Here’s the article from The Scotsman, 3 September, 1901.
BRUTAL ATTACK ON A SHOTTS MAN.—At Irvine Police Court yesterday, Cluny Carson and Wm. Dickson were fined respectively 50s. and 30s., with the alternative of thirty and twenty days in prison, for brutally attacking Wm. Dunlop, engine-driver, Shotts.

Cluny sounds as if he would jump at the chance of joining in a fight, and, as Andrew suggested, may have gone to South Africa, but he would have had to have been back in time for the 1901 assault. But there’s no obvious sign of him in FMP’s collection of military records. http://www.findmypast.co.uk/MilitaryXdbStartSearch.jsp

I had a quick look in the newspapers for any other football reference but no luck.

All the best,
Alan

ninatoo
Posts: 1231
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:42 am
Location: Australia

Re: Well no WONDER!

Post by ninatoo » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:04 am

Andrew and Alan,

Thanks for all that effort to search for Cluny. I knew most of it, but thank you anyway for taking the time to search for him. At the time of the poorhouse record he was separated from Margaret. I noticed that she lived in the same street in Irvine as other Carsons, and so probably knew Cluny for years. Also, first husband Peter was a joiner and a butcher on the 1891 and 1901 census. Cluny's brother Thomas, my gg grandfather was a butcher with his own shop, so chances are he worked with my gg grandfather, and also would have known Cluny.

I'd love to find out more about Cluny's football career, but I don't think that will happen, as it's hard when I don't know which football team he played for.

I also thought he might be off fighting in the Boer War in 1901, and I looked at the link you supplied Alan. I don't have a subscription for it, but I did see the one C. H. Carson which was tempting to look at, as his mother's maiden name is Hyslop (and variants). So I might have a look at it a bit later.

Thanks again!

Nina
Researching: Easton ( Renfrewshire, Dunbarton and Glasgow), Corr (Londonderry and Glasgow), Carson (Co. Down, Irvine, Ayrshire and Glasgow), Logan (Londonderry and Glasgow)

ninatoo
Posts: 1231
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:42 am
Location: Australia

Re: Well no WONDER!

Post by ninatoo » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:10 pm

I thought I might find some hint on the following site, but to no avail. I might be looking at the wrong lists though. I spent ages looking at the Scottish Cup 1873-1986 scanned (sideways) book, only to realise at the end that it didn't include every club. Still, it might be a useful resource for someone:

http://scottish-football-historical-archive.com/home
Researching: Easton ( Renfrewshire, Dunbarton and Glasgow), Corr (Londonderry and Glasgow), Carson (Co. Down, Irvine, Ayrshire and Glasgow), Logan (Londonderry and Glasgow)

ninatoo
Posts: 1231
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:42 am
Location: Australia

Re: Well no WONDER!

Post by ninatoo » Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:03 am

Alan,

I have a lot of searches I would like to do through the archived newspapers, but I can't work out how to make an effective search. Can you give me (and maybe others, too) a few pointers please, and also a link to the page you start your searching at? No matter what I do, I can't seem to manage it!

Nina
Researching: Easton ( Renfrewshire, Dunbarton and Glasgow), Corr (Londonderry and Glasgow), Carson (Co. Down, Irvine, Ayrshire and Glasgow), Logan (Londonderry and Glasgow)

Currie
Posts: 3924
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:20 am
Location: Australia

Re: Well no WONDER!

Post by Currie » Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:44 pm

Hello Nina,

Finding someone in a newspaper is somewhat different to finding someone in a census, or even, at least after statutory registration, amongst the births deaths and marriages. For the census and the BDM’s it’s fairly safe to make the assumption that they must be there somewhere, and that all you need to do is to keep looking till you find them.

With newspapers, people only get there if they advertise, either to draw people’s attention to a particular event, or to sell something, or whatever, or if something happens involving them that the newspaper thinks is newsworthy. For the large majority of people, especially in the period for which newspaper archives are currently available, there was no mention at all.

My Scottish great grandparents left Scotland in the 1880s but great grandfather’s siblings remained and had families. The only thing I’ve ever found in the Scottish newspapers for my Scottish lot was about a child who, in 1942, fell down a flight of stairs. Come to think of it the only time my own name has appeared in a newspaper was in a list of high school examination results, and on the death and funeral notices of an assortment of relatives.

There’s a great number of different newspaper archive databases scattered about and each one has its own method of searching. Most of those databases would have a link to their own set of searching tips. I’m not a very sophisticated searcher and don’t use many of the tricks that I’m sure would be used by some others. I just keep plugging away till I find something or I give up.

I went looking for a set of tips for the 19th Century British Library Newspapers, and found this one from the University of Exeter. Fairly basic and definitely worth reading, there’s some stuff in there I didn’t know about. I’ll have to print that out for future reference. There’s also the help link on the 19C Newspapers search page but it could be a bit tiresome to read all that’s there. http://as.exeter.ac.uk/media/level1/aca ... papers.pdf

I can’t recall ever having had much success in searching newspapers by using wildcards and I very rarely use them. In the light blue bar at the top of the 19C Newspaper search page I don’t think I’ve ever used the Advanced Search or the Publication Search. I occasionally use the Browse Publications by Location link there to find if a newspaper is available for a particular range of years. Some years and ranges of years, especially the earlier ones, are missing for some unknown reason so if you’re getting zero results, and it seems a bit odd, you could check there

If I’m searching for two or more words as an exact phrase I enclose them within quotes. But if I’m searching for two words in close proximity to each other I just type them together without quotes. Apparently that’s the same as using n4 between the words. You can search for words a bit further apart by using say n9, but also try AND in between if you think the words could be much more separated.

If I’m searching for a surname such as McDonald, which will usually appear in the old newspapers as M’Donald, or for a name like O’Leary, I just type in the end bit such as Donald or Leary. In these cases the search will usually see the first letter as an isolated single letter and will ignore it. But that method is unlikely to work within quotes.

You can limit your search to specific newspapers via the Browse Publication Title link. But if you only want to search the four Scottish newspapers pasting all this, "1ZSV" OR "1ZTN" OR "2FXN" OR "1ZTB", into the box will do the job. Or else just type, for example, GLASGOW into the box and the search will be limited to the Glasgow Herald.

If you ever click on a result and get an image which doesn’t look right, either there’s no highlighting, or the highlighting doesn’t make sense, or the snippet looks like it’s been cut out by a drunken sailor, or whatever, click the back button of your browser and try again, maybe a couple of times, to see if things correct themselves.

That’s all I can think of at the moment, hope it’s useful and not too much gobblygook. If you have any questions please let me know.

PS.
I’m not sure what State you’re in at the moment, or if you can also access via your State Library. Here’s the NLA page for the 19C BL Newspapers. Click the A-Z Resources link, then the Licenced Resources link to find their other databases. They don’t have The Scotsman. You need to register etc. http://www.nla.gov.au/app/eresources/item/3303

The Glasgow Herald at Google News Archive is available for a much greater range of years, 1800s to 1990s, than that at 19C BL Newspapers but the search is next to useless, and only worth the effort because rarely something turns up. Two other Glasgow newspapers available there are the Evening Times from 1950s to 1990s and the Bulletin 1950s. They are all very useful if you know the date of an event. You start the next to useless search here, in the pop-up type Glasgow or Evening Times or Bulletin in the source box. http://news.google.com/news/advanced_ne ... ?as_drrb=a

For Browsing:
Glasgow Herald. http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=G ... de=2&hl=en
Evening Times. http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2 ... de=2&hl=en
The Bulletin. http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=F ... de=2&hl=en

I’m not sure now whether you were asking about searching 19C BL Newspapers or Google News Archive but it doesn’t matter.

All the best,
Alan