When did Glasgow cease to be administered by the County of Lanark (Lanarkshire). ?

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ChipChip
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When did Glasgow cease to be administered by the County of Lanark (Lanarkshire). ?

Post by ChipChip » Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:42 pm

I am looking for the precise date (day/month/year if possible), and the source of that date, when Glasgow broke away from Lanarkshire. Over the years
I have made several attempts to find the answer online but all have failed. What seems evident is confusion, conflict and lack of clarity.

As far as I can tell the date coincides with the date of implementation of "The County of the City of Glasgow Act 1893" when Glasgow became a county in its own right. This severed the connection to the former County of Lanark. The postal address of Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland continued to be used up to the introduction of the new Glasgow 'G' postcodes around the early 1970s. The Lanarkshire reference was then dropped from the address although some people continued to use it in error. This led to the mistaken belief, in some quarters, that the local government administration link between Glasgow and Lanarkshire still existed beyond the 1970s.

Hope someone is able to confirm if I am on the right track.

Falkyrn
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Re: When did Glasgow cease to be administered by the County of Lanark (Lanarkshire). ?

Post by Falkyrn » Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:25 pm

According to the boundary commission reports of 1892 the City of Glasgow was to be placed wholly in the County of Lanark.
On Friday 21st of July 1893 the Bill you mentioned "The County of the City of Glasgow Act 1893" was discussed in Parliament (information from Hansard) - the main objections and amendments to the Bill as first suggested appeared to concern payments for certain services and whether Glasgow could afford them.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/189 ... lasgowBill

On the 6th December 1893 Glasgow City Council placed or reported via the Glasgow Herald informing people of the appointment of various Commissioners
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 2784&hl=en

So, it would appear that sometime between the 21st of July 1893 and 6th december 1893 the County of the City of Glasgow came into being.

You also mention postal addresses - thats a different kettle of fish - the post office had its own "Post Office Counties" system and did not change that until some time in the 1930's although even today if you use a Glasgow Postcode on many computerised address systems you are automatically put into Lanarkshire
~RJ Paton~

WilmaM
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Re: When did Glasgow cease to be administered by the County of Lanark (Lanarkshire). ?

Post by WilmaM » Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:44 am

I think it also depends on what you mean by 'Glasgow'.

The City as we know it today is very different from the city in the, not so distant, past before all the surrounding Parishes were brought in under the city boundaries.
Govan for instance, only came part of the city in 1912 along with Partick and Pollockshaws . prior to that they would have been Lanarkshire.

The older generation stuck to the old boundaries - my father could tell you exactly where Govan stopped and the city began - he was born in Govan but his first school was in Glasgow - just 2 streets away.

In the 1960 & 70's our SW1 [previously Govan Burgh] address would have included Lanarkshire until we were put under G51.

Lots of historical anomalies.
Wilma

Falkyrn
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Re: When did Glasgow cease to be administered by the County of Lanark (Lanarkshire). ?

Post by Falkyrn » Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:24 pm

WilmaH is quite correct - you have to be very specific when referring to an entity such as Glasgow - even as late as the 1970's when Strathclyde came into being the then Glasgow District comprised of areas which were taken from Lanarkshire and which returned (or left Glasgow's control) at the next reorganisation.

The 1890's appeared to give impetus to Glasgow's push both to expand and to self administration - 1891 saw the expansion of the City to areas such as Shawlands, Langside & Govanhill. Boundary Commission rulings placed parts of the adjoining Burghs under Glasgow's control but still within Lanarkshire. Renfrewshire lost certain areas (Eastwood Parish) which was placed into Lanarkshire only to be annexed by Glasgow within a decade.
~RJ Paton~

ChipChip
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Re: When did Glasgow cease to be administered by the County of Lanark (Lanarkshire). ?

Post by ChipChip » Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:23 pm

Falkyrn and WilmaM

Many thanks for your prompt responses and the points you raised.
It's very early days but I am pleased that I seem to have got at least one person that actually agrees with my slightly tentative date around 1893. Perhaps that date may take some people by surprise.

Both of you mentioned the importance of defining what is meant by Glasgow. In general terms I have always thought of it as any place within the designated boundary of Glasgow City. I would never include the several areas that lie outside this boundary. For example, Kirkintilloch (G66) currently in East Dunbartonshire or Newton Mearns (G77) currently in East Renfrewshire.

I am well acquainted with the issues of postal addresses and the 'G' postcodes. I merely raised the point of the postal address of Glasgow, Lanarkshire because I believe it was responsible for prolonging the notion that Glasgow was in Lanarkshire. There are still some today that use the Lanarkshire reference and they are not necessarilly part of the older generation.

The 'G' postcodes are generally referred to as the Glasgow Postcodes even though some are not within the Glasgow boundary. Falkyrn mentioned that this is a system set up to suit the needs of the Post Office and does not necessarily tie in with other organisations. In saying that the system today seems to be dominated by your postal address. You need it for everything from getting a mortgage, opening a bank account or ordering stuff online, etc..

Falkyrn
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Re: When did Glasgow cease to be administered by the County of Lanark (Lanarkshire). ?

Post by Falkyrn » Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:04 am

There are several pieces of legislation which may cause confusion
Local Government (Scotland) Act 1929 - came into force 16th May 1930 which was repealed by the
Local Government (Scotland) Act 1947.

Both of these made substantial changes to Local Government administration in Scotland but crucially (with regard to your original question) neither made any changes to those areas which were already designated as "County of City" - As Glasgow was given this status by the 1893 Act it remained unaffected until the implementation of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973.


As an aside - Lanarkshire, for administrative purposes, was split into 3 Wards sometime in the mid 18th Century and Glasgow was the administrative centre for the Lower Ward area.
~RJ Paton~

ChipChip
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Re: When did Glasgow cease to be administered by the County of Lanark (Lanarkshire). ?

Post by ChipChip » Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:12 pm

Falkyrn

Thank you for providing further information.
It's interesting that you mentioned the 'Local Government (Scotland) Act 1929'. As you say it did not change the county of the city areas. However, it was the first time that they all had been listed together in a LG (Scotland) Act. For that reason there were some online suggestions that it was the 1929 Act that created the county of the cities rather than being created by other Acts many years earlier. Hopefully, our comments show that is wrong.
I don't know if people have noticed that it's only fairly recently that ScotlandsPeople has listed the four areas as cities under the 'County/city/minor records' banner.

For the possible interest of others I have listed below the areas in the date order that they were created -
Edinburgh (date uncertain but thought to be 13th century)
Glasgow (1893)
Dundee (1894)
Aberdeen (1899)

Falkyrn
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Re: When did Glasgow cease to be administered by the County of Lanark (Lanarkshire). ?

Post by Falkyrn » Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:40 pm

ChipChip wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:12 pm

For the possible interest of others I have listed below the areas in the date order that they were created -
Edinburgh (date uncertain but thought to be 13th century)
Glasgow (1893)
Dundee (1894)
Aberdeen (1899)

Unlike England where the presence of a Diocesan Cathedral was used as one of the designations of a City this didn't happen in Scotland and so the origins of our towns to Cities is harder to define

Edinburgh's designation as a City is reputed to have first been used in 1633
Dundee it is claimed was first designated a City in 1892 with Aberdeen a year earlier in 1891
Glasgow's is less clear with published dates from the 14th to the 19th Century.

but if the English Criteria had been applied the City title could have been used much earlier (Edinburgh 13th Century, Glasgow early 14th)

However the Modern "City" term was pretty much a meaningless affair as all 4 had been Royal Burghs with all the rights etc that that entailed even within their respective County administrative areas.

Strangely enough because of a Victorian Charter (dated 26th January 1889) which claims to be the first time the term City was used instead of Burgh or Royal Burgh in a Scottish legal document Dundee claims to be the oldest City in Scotland. ( although this is disputed by the people of Perth which from the 9th Century was often described as "that fair city")


What the 19th century pieces of legislation did was to recognise that these areas were now large enough to regard as equals to the Counties as Administrative Units.
~RJ Paton~

ChipChip
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Re: When did Glasgow cease to be administered by the County of Lanark (Lanarkshire). ?

Post by ChipChip » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:40 pm

Falkyrn
I am very grateful for the effort you have put in to answering my topic. I realise that local government issues like this would have many running for the hills.

My list of dates purely related to 'Counties of Cities'. I had always presumed that the individual areas were already 'Cities' at that time. My presumption appears to be near enough correct. I have tended to shy away from the whole aspect of official city status because it is too complex.

The city of Perth, which you mentioned, only received official city status in 2012. I am sure that many Scots do remember it being referred to as "The fair city of Perth" for years, possibly centuries, before that. However, as an example, the 'Local Government (Scotland) Act 1947' lists Perth as a large burgh and not a city. Is it any wonder that elements of confusion prevail.?

It is early days but unless someone else comes online, and has a different view in regard to my initial question, I think it would be prudent to close the thread now. In the meantime your responses have been informative and much appreciated.

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