Good morning everyone!
This morning I tried searching for my great-grandmother, Elizabeth, using Elizabeth McKellar (my great-great grandmother's married name) rather than Elizabeth Gillespie (being the surname she has been listed as for most of the certificates and census I have) on the IGI. All the information I have says that she was born in Greenock, Scotland and the 1861 census says she is a year old.
However, I found an entry which might fit better with the information given for age on marriage certificates and her death certificate. She is listed as Elizabeth McKellar born July 2, 1858 in Blythswood, Glasgow, Scotland. No father is listed but the mother is Jane McKellar.
My great-great grandmother was originally Jean McDougall who married Alexander McKellar and had two sons in Greenock using the surname of McKellar. But then she would appeared to have lived with a gentleman by the name of Gillespie and had two daughters, one of which is my great-grandmother, Elizabeth.
I know that Jane and Jean are interchangeable and but I'm wondering where Blythswood is situate and what it was. Would it have been a place where Jean would have gone to have a baby away from Greenock to avoid stigma? Or am I grasping at straws? Is there any way I can determine if this is the Elizabeth I have been searching for for over 25 years, knowing her name but not able to find a birth certificate.
Your suggestions would be appreciated.
Allison
How does one know if it is the right person?
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Allison
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HeatherH
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Hello Allison,
Your Great Gran's birth sounds a lot like mine.Greenock is in Renfrewshire and Blythswood in Lanarkshire.I'm not 100% sure but my guess would be they are about 30 minutes apart with todays roads and autos.
In my case all the census show my Great Gran born in Barrhead but I haven't had any luck finding her birth.The best 1 I have found was in Greenock.
But seeing all the proof that they did indeed live and die then there must be a birth cert out there for them somewhere.Don't you just love a challenge?
Good Luck,
HeatherH
Your Great Gran's birth sounds a lot like mine.Greenock is in Renfrewshire and Blythswood in Lanarkshire.I'm not 100% sure but my guess would be they are about 30 minutes apart with todays roads and autos.
In my case all the census show my Great Gran born in Barrhead but I haven't had any luck finding her birth.The best 1 I have found was in Greenock.
But seeing all the proof that they did indeed live and die then there must be a birth cert out there for them somewhere.Don't you just love a challenge?
Good Luck,
HeatherH
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Russell
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Hi Joyce
What a lovely way to start in a forum. Youre a natural for TalkingScot obviously.
I think that Heather and Allison need someone to browse the LDS films in Paisley Library to see if their respective great greats have been mistranscribed.
Allison
I wonder if you have been too circumscribed in how you searched for
Mc Kellar ? Or Elizabeth for that matter
Did you try Eli*bet*, Betty, Lizzie and a few other variants , and M*cKel*r for the surname ?
Wildcards are useful but cannot pick up the local abbreviated or affectionate names sometimes entered on Death Certs and census returns.
Greenock doubtless had its share of illegitimate births and there was less stigma in the mid 1800's than in the early 1900's.
Russell
What a lovely way to start in a forum. Youre a natural for TalkingScot obviously.
I think that Heather and Allison need someone to browse the LDS films in Paisley Library to see if their respective great greats have been mistranscribed.
Allison
I wonder if you have been too circumscribed in how you searched for
Mc Kellar ? Or Elizabeth for that matter
Did you try Eli*bet*, Betty, Lizzie and a few other variants , and M*cKel*r for the surname ?
Wildcards are useful but cannot pick up the local abbreviated or affectionate names sometimes entered on Death Certs and census returns.
Greenock doubtless had its share of illegitimate births and there was less stigma in the mid 1800's than in the early 1900's.
Russell
Working on: Oman, Brock, Miller/Millar, in Caithness.
Roan/Rowan, Hastings, Sharp, Lapraik in Ayr & Kirkcudbrightshire.
Johnston, Reside, Lyle all over the place !
McGilvray(spelt 26 different ways)
Watson, Morton, Anderson, Tawse, in Kilrenny
Roan/Rowan, Hastings, Sharp, Lapraik in Ayr & Kirkcudbrightshire.
Johnston, Reside, Lyle all over the place !
McGilvray(spelt 26 different ways)
Watson, Morton, Anderson, Tawse, in Kilrenny
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nelmit
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Hello Allison,
Do you know for definite the two boys in the 1861 census are sons of Jane? How do you know she is the Jean Macdonald who married Alexander McKellar?
Ancestry has just gone off line so I can't confirm this.
In 1851 there is a Joseph Gillespie (blacksmith) of the right age living in the same household as a Robina McKellar age 40 with 2 sons Alexander and Donald. If I remember correctly the boys ages match but I can't be sure till ancestry comes on again. I think they are Robina's sons and not Jane's.
My theory at the moment is that the Jane living with Joseph doesn't have the surname Mcdougall and if Elizabeth was illegitimate then she would be registered under her mother's maiden name. Unfortunately the only illegitimate Elizabeth I can find with mother Jane has the surname Shedden but she would have been 2 at the time of the 1861 census.
Anyway some food for thought unless you are absolutely positive Jean Macdonald is definitely her mother. In that case she should have been registered under Macdonald if Joseph didn't sign the register.
regards,
Annette
Later........Just had a thought - did Elizabeth give her mother's maiden name as McDougall when she married?
Do you know for definite the two boys in the 1861 census are sons of Jane? How do you know she is the Jean Macdonald who married Alexander McKellar?
Ancestry has just gone off line so I can't confirm this.
In 1851 there is a Joseph Gillespie (blacksmith) of the right age living in the same household as a Robina McKellar age 40 with 2 sons Alexander and Donald. If I remember correctly the boys ages match but I can't be sure till ancestry comes on again. I think they are Robina's sons and not Jane's.
My theory at the moment is that the Jane living with Joseph doesn't have the surname Mcdougall and if Elizabeth was illegitimate then she would be registered under her mother's maiden name. Unfortunately the only illegitimate Elizabeth I can find with mother Jane has the surname Shedden but she would have been 2 at the time of the 1861 census.
Anyway some food for thought unless you are absolutely positive Jean Macdonald is definitely her mother. In that case she should have been registered under Macdonald if Joseph didn't sign the register.
regards,
Annette
Later........Just had a thought - did Elizabeth give her mother's maiden name as McDougall when she married?
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HeatherH
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Thank you for the offer Wallace. What a wonderful birthday present it is.( not saying which birthday 
)
If you can keep your eyes open for someone fitting this set of data it would be fantastic.
Margaret Ann Walker
Father Duncan Walker Ironstone Moulder or Dresser
Mother Margaret Strachan
On the 1881 census I found ...
1881 census Neilston Renfrew Main Street Brownlies Ld
Duncan Walker Head Mar 24 Iron Dresser Ardrossan Ayr
Margaret Walker Wife Mar 29 wife of iron Dresser Ireland
Margaret Walker dau S 34 months Barrhead Renfrew
William S Walker son S 11months Barrhead Renfrew
William Kennedy Boarder n/a 16 Iron Moulder Ardrossan Ayr
Jane Kennedy visitor n/a 16 general Servant Ardrossan Ayr
What is strange about this is Margaret being listed as 34 months. Usually after their 1st b'day children are listed 1, 2, 3 etc I have found.
As Duncan Walker and Margaret Strachan married 5 June 1879 chances are Margaret is illigit.
Next I found the 1891 census and even more questions...
1891 Census Barrhead Neilston
Craighead
Duncan Walker head mar 33 Ironstone dresser Glasgow Lanarkshire
Margaret wife mar 38 Ireland
Margaret A dau unm 13 mill worker Renfrewshire Barrhead
Wm S son unm 10 scholar Renfrewshire Barrhead
Duncan son unm 9 scholar Renfrewshire Barrhead
Margaret S dau unm 8 scholar Renfrewshire Barrhead
Barbara C dau unm 6 scholar Renfrewshire Barrhead
Eliz S dau unm 4 Renfrewshire Barrhead
Mary C dau unm 3 Renfrewshire Barrhead
Jane S dau unm 1 Renfrewshire Barrhead
Elizabeth Strachan aunt unm 52 Field Worker Ireland
Janet Kennedy visitor unm 20 dry something Saltcoats Scotland
Eliz visitor unm 14 scholar Saltcoats Scotland
You will notice Duncan and Margaret now have 2 daughters named Margaret . My Great Gran Margaret Ann Walker and her sister Margaret Strachan Walker who was born 1 Oct 1882 in Barrhead.
On the 15 Feb 1895 Margaret Walker ( no middle name) married Robert Henry Haldane in Barrhead.
The family can be found on the 1901 census ...
1901 Census Neilston Barrhead Renfrewshire
13 Stormyland Street 1 window
Robert Haldane head M 26 printfield labourer Renfrewshire Barrhead
Margaret Haldane wife M 23 Renfrewshire Barrhead
Robert Haldane son U 4 Renfrewshire Barrhead
Margaret Haldane dau U 2 Renfrewshire Barrhead
Another few months and my grandfather Duncan would have been on the census as well.
And here is Margaret's sister Margaret with her family in 1901...
1901 census Barrhead Neilston 11 Stormyland Street 2 windows
Duncan Walker Head Mar 42 Iron Moulder Lanarkshire Glasgow
Margaret Walker Wife Mar 48 Ireland
William Walker son S 20 apprentis brass finisher Renfrewshire Barrhead
Duncan Walker son S 19 Apprentis iron Moulder Renfrewshire Barrhead
Margaret Walker dau S 18 Printfield worker Renfrewshire Barrhead
Barbara Walker dau S 16 Printfield worker Renfrewshire Barrhead
Elizabeth Walker dau S 14 Printfield worker Renfrewshire Barrhead
Mary Walker dau S 13 scholar Renfrewshire Barrhead
Jeannie Walker dau S 11 scholar Renfrewshire Barrhead
Henry Walker son S 9 scholar Renfrewshire Barrhead
Isabella Walker dau S 6 scholar Renfrewshire Barrhead
On the death cert for my great gran her Husband seems to have forgotten which sister he married and registers his wife as Margaret Strachan Walker ....
1942 Deaths in the District of Barrhead and Levern in the County of Renfrew page 14 No. 40
Margaret Strachan Haldane married to Robert Henry Haldane printfield labourer
1942 May 24th 10h 30m am
173 Waulkmill Avenue Barrhead
female 65 years old
Duncan Walker iron something (dec)
Margaret Walker MS Strachan (dec)
something causes cerebral Hemorages
as certified by Allan F McLeod L R C P
Robert H Haldane widower present
1942 May 25th at Barrhead
J S Houston registrar
I can't find a Marriage or a death for My great grans sister born Margaret Strachan Walker.
I can't find a Birth for my great gran Margaret Ann Walker ( probably regsitered in the name of Strachan)
I found 1 possible ....
page 142
1877 Births in the East Parish of Greenock in the County of Renfrew
#425 Margaret Strachan Illigimate
1877 July 6th
10 h PM
95 East Hamilton Street Greenock
Mother Margaret Strachan Domestic Servant
registered by Jane Connelly Aunt present
1877 July 9th at Greenock
However Jane Connelly while formerly a Strachan on her Marriage cert to John Connelly on the 3 May 1869 lists her parents as John Strachan and Ann Jane Strachan MS Birkby
Margaret Strachan's parents were William Strachan and Mary Ferrie ( Luckily when Margaret came from Ireland the whole tribe came with her and I was able to get all the BMDs for the siblings and parents taking me back a further generation in Ireland)
Any help on this tangle would be appreciated.
Just to make things a wee bite more interesting I had not been able to find Robert Henry Haldane's parents Robert Henry Haldane and Jane McIlwee on the 1901 census until I went door to door and found this....
1901 census 13 Stormyland Street Barrhead
Henry Middleton Head M 52 Printfield Labourer Roxburghshire Hawick
Jane Middleton Wife M 48 Ayrshire Kilwinning
Andrew Middleton Son U 24 Printfield Labourer Renfrewshire Neilston
John Middleton Son U 22 Printfield Labourer Renfrewshire Neilston
Thomas Middleton Son U 19 Printfield Labourer Renfrewshire Neilston
Jane Middleton Dau U 16 Printfield Worker Renfrewshire Neilston
Everything matches beautifully right donw to ages, place of birth, occupations not to mention they are at the correct address ( same building in fact as Robert Henry Jr.) So why did my great great grandfather drop the Robert and why is he listed as a Middleton????
Any suggestions would be welcome. This is from the actual images not ancestry transcriptions by the way.
Cherrs,
Heather
)If you can keep your eyes open for someone fitting this set of data it would be fantastic.
Margaret Ann Walker
Father Duncan Walker Ironstone Moulder or Dresser
Mother Margaret Strachan
On the 1881 census I found ...
1881 census Neilston Renfrew Main Street Brownlies Ld
Duncan Walker Head Mar 24 Iron Dresser Ardrossan Ayr
Margaret Walker Wife Mar 29 wife of iron Dresser Ireland
Margaret Walker dau S 34 months Barrhead Renfrew
William S Walker son S 11months Barrhead Renfrew
William Kennedy Boarder n/a 16 Iron Moulder Ardrossan Ayr
Jane Kennedy visitor n/a 16 general Servant Ardrossan Ayr
What is strange about this is Margaret being listed as 34 months. Usually after their 1st b'day children are listed 1, 2, 3 etc I have found.
As Duncan Walker and Margaret Strachan married 5 June 1879 chances are Margaret is illigit.
Next I found the 1891 census and even more questions...
1891 Census Barrhead Neilston
Craighead
Duncan Walker head mar 33 Ironstone dresser Glasgow Lanarkshire
Margaret wife mar 38 Ireland
Margaret A dau unm 13 mill worker Renfrewshire Barrhead
Wm S son unm 10 scholar Renfrewshire Barrhead
Duncan son unm 9 scholar Renfrewshire Barrhead
Margaret S dau unm 8 scholar Renfrewshire Barrhead
Barbara C dau unm 6 scholar Renfrewshire Barrhead
Eliz S dau unm 4 Renfrewshire Barrhead
Mary C dau unm 3 Renfrewshire Barrhead
Jane S dau unm 1 Renfrewshire Barrhead
Elizabeth Strachan aunt unm 52 Field Worker Ireland
Janet Kennedy visitor unm 20 dry something Saltcoats Scotland
Eliz visitor unm 14 scholar Saltcoats Scotland
You will notice Duncan and Margaret now have 2 daughters named Margaret . My Great Gran Margaret Ann Walker and her sister Margaret Strachan Walker who was born 1 Oct 1882 in Barrhead.
On the 15 Feb 1895 Margaret Walker ( no middle name) married Robert Henry Haldane in Barrhead.
The family can be found on the 1901 census ...
1901 Census Neilston Barrhead Renfrewshire
13 Stormyland Street 1 window
Robert Haldane head M 26 printfield labourer Renfrewshire Barrhead
Margaret Haldane wife M 23 Renfrewshire Barrhead
Robert Haldane son U 4 Renfrewshire Barrhead
Margaret Haldane dau U 2 Renfrewshire Barrhead
Another few months and my grandfather Duncan would have been on the census as well.
And here is Margaret's sister Margaret with her family in 1901...
1901 census Barrhead Neilston 11 Stormyland Street 2 windows
Duncan Walker Head Mar 42 Iron Moulder Lanarkshire Glasgow
Margaret Walker Wife Mar 48 Ireland
William Walker son S 20 apprentis brass finisher Renfrewshire Barrhead
Duncan Walker son S 19 Apprentis iron Moulder Renfrewshire Barrhead
Margaret Walker dau S 18 Printfield worker Renfrewshire Barrhead
Barbara Walker dau S 16 Printfield worker Renfrewshire Barrhead
Elizabeth Walker dau S 14 Printfield worker Renfrewshire Barrhead
Mary Walker dau S 13 scholar Renfrewshire Barrhead
Jeannie Walker dau S 11 scholar Renfrewshire Barrhead
Henry Walker son S 9 scholar Renfrewshire Barrhead
Isabella Walker dau S 6 scholar Renfrewshire Barrhead
On the death cert for my great gran her Husband seems to have forgotten which sister he married and registers his wife as Margaret Strachan Walker ....
1942 Deaths in the District of Barrhead and Levern in the County of Renfrew page 14 No. 40
Margaret Strachan Haldane married to Robert Henry Haldane printfield labourer
1942 May 24th 10h 30m am
173 Waulkmill Avenue Barrhead
female 65 years old
Duncan Walker iron something (dec)
Margaret Walker MS Strachan (dec)
something causes cerebral Hemorages
as certified by Allan F McLeod L R C P
Robert H Haldane widower present
1942 May 25th at Barrhead
J S Houston registrar
I can't find a Marriage or a death for My great grans sister born Margaret Strachan Walker.
I can't find a Birth for my great gran Margaret Ann Walker ( probably regsitered in the name of Strachan)
I found 1 possible ....
page 142
1877 Births in the East Parish of Greenock in the County of Renfrew
#425 Margaret Strachan Illigimate
1877 July 6th
10 h PM
95 East Hamilton Street Greenock
Mother Margaret Strachan Domestic Servant
registered by Jane Connelly Aunt present
1877 July 9th at Greenock
However Jane Connelly while formerly a Strachan on her Marriage cert to John Connelly on the 3 May 1869 lists her parents as John Strachan and Ann Jane Strachan MS Birkby
Margaret Strachan's parents were William Strachan and Mary Ferrie ( Luckily when Margaret came from Ireland the whole tribe came with her and I was able to get all the BMDs for the siblings and parents taking me back a further generation in Ireland)
Any help on this tangle would be appreciated.
Just to make things a wee bite more interesting I had not been able to find Robert Henry Haldane's parents Robert Henry Haldane and Jane McIlwee on the 1901 census until I went door to door and found this....
1901 census 13 Stormyland Street Barrhead
Henry Middleton Head M 52 Printfield Labourer Roxburghshire Hawick
Jane Middleton Wife M 48 Ayrshire Kilwinning
Andrew Middleton Son U 24 Printfield Labourer Renfrewshire Neilston
John Middleton Son U 22 Printfield Labourer Renfrewshire Neilston
Thomas Middleton Son U 19 Printfield Labourer Renfrewshire Neilston
Jane Middleton Dau U 16 Printfield Worker Renfrewshire Neilston
Everything matches beautifully right donw to ages, place of birth, occupations not to mention they are at the correct address ( same building in fact as Robert Henry Jr.) So why did my great great grandfather drop the Robert and why is he listed as a Middleton????
Any suggestions would be welcome. This is from the actual images not ancestry transcriptions by the way.
Cherrs,
Heather
Looking for ...but not limited to Haldane ,Keir ,McLauchlan ,Walker ,Torrance , Reid ,Clark ,Johnstone ,Holmes ,Laurie ,Lawrie ,Strachan , McIlwee ,Welsh ,Queate ,Stewert ,McNight ,Steele ,Cockburn ,Young ....whew! That's more than enough for now.
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wallace
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HeatherH
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Ta Wallace,
No rush they aren't going anywhere. Or at least I hope not.
HeatherH
No rush they aren't going anywhere. Or at least I hope not.
HeatherH
Looking for ...but not limited to Haldane ,Keir ,McLauchlan ,Walker ,Torrance , Reid ,Clark ,Johnstone ,Holmes ,Laurie ,Lawrie ,Strachan , McIlwee ,Welsh ,Queate ,Stewert ,McNight ,Steele ,Cockburn ,Young ....whew! That's more than enough for now.
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wallace
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- Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:27 am
- Location: Glasgow
Oh Dear, this is complicated isn't it.
The Haldanes Robert and Jane were living in Main Street Neilston, (where I live) in the 1891 census – Jane’s place of birth is stated here as Kilbirnie not Kilwinning they are about 5 miles apart.
When Robert died in 1906 he is listed as living at 11 Stormyland Street, Barrhead. Maybe it is a genuine error on the census I can't believe so much matches except the second name. I work in the local library and I think we have copies in Barrhead Library on microfiche of the census. Will take a wee look at these next time I am down there.
If the census is right Margaret Ann Walker was born around June 1878, the 1901 census was taken on 3 April, count back 34 months and this takes you to June 1878. Unless the census record means 3 years 4 months, which takes her back to 1877. This year ties in better with the age and date on the death certificate.
If she was illegitimate as the dates suggest maybe you can’t find her birth record because her mother put her actual father’s name on the certificate or because she was sent away to have her.
Will keep looking and let you know if I find anything.
Joyce
The Haldanes Robert and Jane were living in Main Street Neilston, (where I live) in the 1891 census – Jane’s place of birth is stated here as Kilbirnie not Kilwinning they are about 5 miles apart.
When Robert died in 1906 he is listed as living at 11 Stormyland Street, Barrhead. Maybe it is a genuine error on the census I can't believe so much matches except the second name. I work in the local library and I think we have copies in Barrhead Library on microfiche of the census. Will take a wee look at these next time I am down there.
If the census is right Margaret Ann Walker was born around June 1878, the 1901 census was taken on 3 April, count back 34 months and this takes you to June 1878. Unless the census record means 3 years 4 months, which takes her back to 1877. This year ties in better with the age and date on the death certificate.
If she was illegitimate as the dates suggest maybe you can’t find her birth record because her mother put her actual father’s name on the certificate or because she was sent away to have her.
Will keep looking and let you know if I find anything.
Joyce
Family Names are Maxwell, Wallace, McCrorie, Brodie, Hunter
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HeatherH
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Hello Joyce,
The Haldane's did indeed live on Stormyland Street. Up and doon the street all over the place for many years. Most popular houses were numbers 11 and 13. I have all the census for the family from 1841-1901 except Robert Henry Haldane and Jane McIlwee in 1871 just after their marriage in 1870 in Neilston. ( if I include the one for Middleton as mine) There must be a typo or mispelling behind it somewhere.
As for Jane McIlwee's birth or even that of her mum Prudence Stewart I have had no luck. Just the marriage in Kilwinning of John Meicklewee and Pruden Stewart in 1848. As Prudence and Jane are at Paisley Rd, Cross Arthurlie, Barrhead for the 1851 census I wonder if She applied for relief from the parish in Kilwinning to return to Renfrew or if Kilwinning decided to ship her back so as not to be stuck with a young widow and infant?
I never thought of 3 years 4 months as being the age of Margaret Ann Walker on the census . However when I was in NRH I spent ages looking for any possible child with a Mum Margaret Strachan and any surname with no success. However I was still very new to the genealogy game and probably missed some obvious possibility due to my lack of knowledge. ( Can't wait to have another go, unfortunetely that won't be for a few years yet)
I really appreciate your help. If I can return the favour ljust let me know.
HeatherH
The Haldane's did indeed live on Stormyland Street. Up and doon the street all over the place for many years. Most popular houses were numbers 11 and 13. I have all the census for the family from 1841-1901 except Robert Henry Haldane and Jane McIlwee in 1871 just after their marriage in 1870 in Neilston. ( if I include the one for Middleton as mine) There must be a typo or mispelling behind it somewhere.
As for Jane McIlwee's birth or even that of her mum Prudence Stewart I have had no luck. Just the marriage in Kilwinning of John Meicklewee and Pruden Stewart in 1848. As Prudence and Jane are at Paisley Rd, Cross Arthurlie, Barrhead for the 1851 census I wonder if She applied for relief from the parish in Kilwinning to return to Renfrew or if Kilwinning decided to ship her back so as not to be stuck with a young widow and infant?
I never thought of 3 years 4 months as being the age of Margaret Ann Walker on the census . However when I was in NRH I spent ages looking for any possible child with a Mum Margaret Strachan and any surname with no success. However I was still very new to the genealogy game and probably missed some obvious possibility due to my lack of knowledge. ( Can't wait to have another go, unfortunetely that won't be for a few years yet)
I really appreciate your help. If I can return the favour ljust let me know.
HeatherH
Looking for ...but not limited to Haldane ,Keir ,McLauchlan ,Walker ,Torrance , Reid ,Clark ,Johnstone ,Holmes ,Laurie ,Lawrie ,Strachan , McIlwee ,Welsh ,Queate ,Stewert ,McNight ,Steele ,Cockburn ,Young ....whew! That's more than enough for now.