St Paul's Church North Shore Kirkdale

[frances]

I am looking for a photograph of the above church which I believe was demolished in 1978 and of any details of what kind of houses would have been in Brock Street Kirkdale in the 1880s-- a big ask I know but any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

Frances

[LesleyB]

Hi Frances

Am I right in thinking this was a church in Liverpool?

See http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h ... s%3Disch:1
for an image of the street "West View of Brock Street" - there seems to be no mention of the date, but you could email the address given with the other streets which can be found here:
http://www.kirkdaleonline.co.uk/full_list.htm
Looking up and down the street in the 1881 census should also give you a good idea of sizes of houses/households - the 1881 census can be viewed for free on the family search site

Best wishes
Lesley

[Currie]

Hello Frances,

In Lesley’s photo of Brock Street, Kirkdale, the motor vehicles look no older than 1970’s, the street looks nicely paved and the row of terraces quite nice and presentable, and unless there’s some hidden problem, it would have been a shame to have bulldozed the lot to set up the mundane example of suburbia there now. But then it was probably the same story with the church.

In the 19C Newspapers mentions of the street have house numbers ranging from 1 to 70. On Google Earth, Brock Street has a length of only 131 Metres, or 430 feet, and has very colourful Wheelie Bins. The length may have been fiddled with over the years, however the streets at the end, Whitfield and Doon, appear to have had 19C equivalents in Whitefield Lane and Doon Street, Kirkdale. That number of houses in such a short street suggests to me the type of buildings as in the photo. (Drag the little orange man down to the street and go for a walk) http://maps.google.com/maps?t=h&hl=en&i ... 04211&z=18

The Minister of the church was for many years the Rev Edward Lester. He struck me as being a very hard working fellow and deserving a bit more notice by history than he and his church have received. The Liverpool Mercury received many letters from him asking for donations for the poor, and for the school, and for the church, and acknowledging each donation individuals had made even down to a parcel of socks.

Here’s a letter from him to the Liverpool Mercury, Monday, June 17, 1867, at the time the church was being built.

ST. PAUL’S, NORTH SHORE.
To the Editors of the Liverpool Mercury.
Gentlemen,—The builder is hard at work with this church, and I am very anxious to raise at once the comparatively small sum yet required. If some of your kind readers will send donations in money or aid us with our forthcoming bazaar, I shall indeed be glad. I ask not for large sums, but only crave the crumbs of liberality; even a mite will be received with thanks by yours truly,
EDWARD LESTER
Victoria Villa, Derby-road, Bootle.

Unfortunately there’s no sign of a photograph of the church. The best I can do is the description in the Liverpool Mercury, Friday, May 24, 1867, of the laying of the foundation stone.

CHURCH EXTENSION IN LIVERPOOL.
RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION AND THE "SAFETY OF THE STATE."
The working population of Bootle, Kirkdale, and other districts at the north end of the town has of late years greatly increased. This is in a great measure consequent upon the dock extension and the numbers of large works that have been established in those localities, What were a short time ago green fields or sand hills are now the sites of innumerable houses and gigantic factories and warehouses. While the district has been progressing in material matters, it has been felt that sufficient provision has not been made for the spiritual wants of the inhabitants. Efforts have accordingly been made by different denominations to meet the deficiency, and the result is that several handsome and capacious churches and chapels have been lately erected in the neighbour-hood. The friends of the Establishment have been indefatigable in the work of church extension in the locality, and yesterday the foundation-stone was laid of a new place of worship which is to be built under their auspices. The site of the proposed edifice is near Bankhill Bridge, and is contiguous to those streets where many of the working classes reside. The land has been given by the Earl of Derby. The Rev. Edward Lester is to be the incumbent of the new church.
The plan of the church consists of a nave about 70 feet by 50 feet, having side galleries, with a wide open chancel 20 feet deep, separated by the chancel arch, supported upon detached stone shafts, having enriched caps. The sides of the chancel are also divided from small side spaces opening into the nave by arches, thus giving a view of the chancel from all parts of the nave and side galleries. The principal entrance in the west front is by a large porch 20 feet by 10 feet, and from this to the nave by two sets of folding doors. The galleries are entered by separate doorways and separate staircases. The roofs will be of open-framed timber principals, resting on the outer walls, but also supported by light iron columns springing from those supporting the galleries; the whole of the woodwork stained and varnished. The total cost, with the exception of boundary walls and land, will not exceed £4500. The organ and gallery for the choir will be at the west end. The nave will seat about 600, and the galleries about 250 persons—total, 850. There will be a vestry at each end, and the whole church will be warmed and ventilated in a complete manner. The style of architecture is the geometric pointed, of a simple character, suited to the cost and character of the church, the west front having a central recessed porch and large west window over. On the north of the doorway will be a bell tower and spire, rising about 90 feet high. The front and side porches will be built in Yorkshire stone shoddies and Stourton stone dressings, the remainder of picked bricks and stone dressings.
The ceremony of laying the foundation stone was performed by Mr. Christopher Bushell, and was witnessed by a large concourse of people.
Mr. Charles Groves having presented the silver trowel to Mr. Bushell,
Mr. Bushell said he rejoiced to see so large an attendance of the working classes—he rejoiced to see that evidence of their sympathy with such a work. He rejoiced that they had given more substantial proof of their sympathy with this work, inasmuch as he was told that £100—a very large proportion, considering the source from which it came—had been contributed by the working classes in sums varying from £1 to 1d. (Applause.) It had been often said that there was a marked indifference on the part of the working classes to public worship, and he was sorry to say that there was much truth in this. Lately conferences had been held and discussions had taken place upon the subject to see whether it was possible to ascertain the cause why this state of things existed. The fact remained; it was a melancholy one, and one which …………………… [etc, etc, at some length.]

Hope that’s interesting,
Alan

[frances]

Thank you both for your help , just the kind of information I was looking for .

The SP "family" comes up trumps again

Kind Regards

Frances

[Ann In the UK]

Hi Frances,

Brock street was off Walton Road, Kirkdale, a district which is often also linked to the neighbouring Vauxhall area. In this 1901 map, it's split over two pages ,so you can get an idea of how long it was.

http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co. ... eets.htm#B

In those days, in that area (as now, actually) you're probably looking at little more than slums, to be honest. So, we're probably talking about the old court houses, which tended to be demolished to make way for (only slightly more appealing) tenements, flats, or (after the war) terraced houses.
Some of the images in these links may give you some idea:

http://inacityliving.piczo.com/?g=44922707&cr=7

http://www.mersey-gateway.org/pastliver ... /slums.htm

http://www.mersey-gateway.org/server.ph ... gallery.67

http://streetsofliverpool.co.uk/tag/kirkdale/

http://www.historic-liverpool.co.uk/kirkdale

Any records from St Pauls will probably be held at the Picton library in town - which has unfortunately just closed for a two year renovation project, with access to the records in the interim still uncertain...

But you might be lucky and find some bits online
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Liverpool/

[frances]

Thanks for that, some really interesting images.

The person I am looking at (John Russell) born c 1850 in Liverpool was described as a Marine Engineer on his will and as an engineer on his marriage certificate to Mary Colquhoun 28/3/1877.

The strange thing is that although he died in 1884 in Liverpool his will was lodged at Glasgow Sheriff Court ."Sometime of thirty three Brook Street Kirkdale, Liverpool, presently residing at Calderbank near Airdrie"-- A bit of a mystery

Frances

[Ann In the UK]

As you're probably aware, a marine engineer was also known as a stoker, or a marine fireman - i.e a mariner who went to sea and looked after the engines onboard a steam ship (my great grandfather was a one and I've seen him described as all three).

Interesting twist with the will - but have you looked into his career at all? Was he on a regular route - on a passenger service, say? Perhaps the ships he sailed on passed through Glasgow frequently enough for him to stay over, or even take up partial residence - and maybe he knew someone in the Calderbank area, so it made sense, if he was staying over for long periods, to stay near them...? And maybe that's where his will happened to be at the time of his death? Just a thought.

[frances]

Hi Anne,

No havn't looked at his career yet, can you recommend a web site for this.

Thanks again for help

Frances

[Ann In the UK]

Hi Frances,

If only it was that easy - alas not. Mariners are notoriously difficult to trace - especially in that era. There isn't a central database as such with mariners names listed like in, say, a census or suchlike.

But, as he was an engineer, this may be useful

Engineers
The system of Engineers’ certificates is similar to that for mates and masters (see above). However, records are only available between 1862 and 1921.

Accessing engineers’ records
Certificates and surviving applications are again organised by mariner’s number and not name. The only way to identify an engineer’s number is by the official registers at the National Archives:

• Registers of Certificates of Competency: Engineers (1861–1921) National Archives (catalogue references: BT139 – BT142).

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/researchers/librar ... -engineers

You may be lucky and find him in the listings at find my past. But don't count on it - they've only indexed a tiny percentage of what's out there. Here's a couple of sites you may find useful:

http://rmhh.co.uk/mariners.html

http://www.angelfire.com/de/BobSanders/Site.html
You don't say what sort of ships he sailed on - I'm presuming he was a merchant seaman, but if not, there's other useful info here anyway.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/reco ... lp=rg-3179

Tracing ships, by comparison, is much easier if you know any of the names of the ones he sailed on. So when you get to that stage let me know and I'll give you a couple of tips.

[frances]

Hello Ann,

Thanks again with all your suggestions. I will look at various sites for any clues to John.

John wasn't at home with his family in Liverpool in the 1881 census, I will see if I can find him elsewhere.

Thanks again

Frances