PENMAN / GATES / SPARRE. MY BRICK WALL.

seeker · Post by **seeker** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:33 pm

All I need is one brick out of the wall and then it might start to crumble.

Who were the parents of Jane Penman and James Gates !!!!!
I know my family line of Sparre.

PENMAN. Jane, m: GATES. James, 20t October 1871 at Renfew, Scotland

ISSUE: GATES. Helen, b: 22nd August 1872 at Dalmellington, Ayr, Scotland.
GATES. Richard, b: about 1880 (can find no record for Richard in Australia so I presume that he was born in Scotland or on the ship enroute to Australia)
Also 2 males deceased.

Can not find when the family came to Australia at all or a death for
James Gates at New South Wales B.D.M's.

2nd marriage:

PENMAN. Jane, (widow) age, 38 yrs, m: Maximillian Albert Sparre (bachelor) age, 31 years, at Silverton, New South Wales 29th November 1885 at Canopus Street, according to the Presbyterian Ritual.

On the death cert. for Jane, d: 14th June 1908 at Broken Hill, New South Wales. It states that her first marriage was at Leith, Scotand and was born at ? Maryhill Glasgow and had lived in N.S.W. for 17 years and South Australia for 12 years. As by adding the years together (29 years) and taking them from her death date the Penman / Gates family arrived in Australia in 1879 or there abouts

I really need help to solve this puzzle.
Thank you for reading and sorry it is so long.

Seeker
Queensland.

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:47 pm

Hi Seeker
...and welcome to Talking Scot

Have you tried searching for the events at the Scotlands People site? The census records there may also be a help.
The marriage

Who were the parents of Jane Penman and James Gates !!!!!
PENMAN. Jane, m: GATES. James, 20t October 1871 at Renfew, Scotland

if you search for and download it on Scotlands People, will state the names of thier parents.

Best wishes
Lesley

WilmaM · Post by **WilmaM** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:48 pm

Hi and Welcome,

The IGI at family search gives 2 children:
HELEN GATES Female
Birth: 22 AUG 1872 Dalmellington, Ayr, Scotland

THOMAS GATES Male
Birth: 21 AUG 1874 Dalry, Ayr, Scotland

but no sign of Richard.

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:50 pm

These is a marriage for a couple with those names in 1871 in Renfrew on the Scotlands People site.

seeker · Post by **seeker** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:44 pm

Lesley,

Many thanks, will go there now.

Wilma,
Thank you. I think that was the name one of the two who died as the names were not given on her death cert.

On the death cert. Janes parents are: James Penman, miner and Ellen Walker
On the marriage cert to my 1x G.grandfather the parents are James Penman, mine manager and Helen Lochhead.
Confusing to say the least, now I know why I put this back on the shelf for a number of years

Seeker.

WilmaM · Post by **WilmaM** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:00 am

seeker wrote:Lesley,

On the death cert. Janes parents are: James Penman, miner and Ellen Walker
On the marriage cert to my 1x G.grandfather the parents are James Penman, mine manager and Helen Lochhead.
Confusing to say the least, now I know why I put this back on the shelf for a number of years

Seeker.

Helen & Ellen are interchangable, and depending on who supplied the death certificate information mistakes can easily creep in esp. when it comes to a maiden name.

Did you find the marriage cert on Scotlandspeople? what does it say?

Currie · Post by **Currie** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:43 pm

Hello Seeker,

Just a bit of background for anyone interested.

Broken Hill and Silverton are located close together in New South Wales near the border with South Australia. They are about 700 miles to the west from Sydney and only half that distance to the southern city of Adelaide. Large deposits of silver were discovered at Silverton in 1880 and at Broken Hill in 1883 and resulted in rushes of miners to these previously uninhabited areas.

If someone in the UK heard about this discovery and decided to head there they wouldn’t have gone via NSW but logically would have headed for South Australia. Broken Hill and Silverton may have been in NSW but for most practical purposes they were part of South Australia. Unfortunately South Australia doesn’t have anything much online as far as immigration records are concerned. Maybe Mr Gates died in South Australia but again there are no records online.

There doesn’t appear to be any concrete evidence so far that Mr Gates ever arrived in Australia although it’s unlikely a widow with small children would have headed off by themselves to a place as remote and inhospitable as Broken Hill unless her husband or at least a male companion accompanied her.

The registration of her second marriage under her maiden name rather than her first married name seems a bit unusual in my experience. Also, if Richard had been born onboard ship there’s a good chance he would have been lumbered with the ship’s name for a middle name.

A search for surname Gates, forename *penman, on SP brings up two birth matches in 1876 somewhere in Scotland. I think.

Hope this helps,
Alan

LATER: It looks like Penman is the first name rather than the middle name of the 1876 births.
Alan

Currie · Post by **Currie** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:10 pm

There’s something here but I haven’t checked the details.

http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/penman/

http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/Penman/message/41

Mentions Broken Hill cemetery
http://www.brokenhill.net.au/Cem.php

Something for Silverton cemetery here
http://members.iinet.net.au/~mewilson/b ... ken%20Hill

Good night,
Alan

Post by **SarahND** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:21 am

Hello Seeker, and welcome.

If this is the correct family for Jane/Jean in 1861 & 1871, then both her parents lived into the Statutory Record era and their death certificates should provide you with their parents also. Who were James Gates' parents on their marriage certificate?

1861
Houses West of Cowbrae, New Monkland, Lanark
James Penman, 37, Head, born Stevenston, Ayrshire, Iron Stone Miner
Helen Penman, 36, Wife, born Barony Par, Lanarkshire
Jane Penman, 16, Daughter, born Old Monkland, Lanarkshire, Paper Mill Worker
Helen Penman, 14, Daughter, born Old Monkland, Lanarkshire, Paper Mill Worker
Elizabeth Penman, 12, Daughter, born Old Monkland, Lanarkshire, Scholar
James Penman, 5, Son, born Old Monkland, Lanarkshire, Scholar
Thomas Penman, 3, Son, born Old Monkland, Lanarkshire

1871
19 Balgray Row, Partick, Govan, Lanarkshire
James Penman, 47, Head, born Stevenston, Ayrshire, Ironstone Miner
Helen Penman, 46, Wife, born Shettleston, Lanark
Jean Penman, 26, Daughter, born Old Monkland, Lanark, Steam Loom Weaver
James Penman, 15, Son, born Old Monkland, Scholar
James Penman, 13 (surely this is Thomas?), born Old Monkland, Lanark, Scholar
John Penman, 6, Son, born Old Monkland, Lanark, scholar

All the best,
Sarah

Post by **SarahND** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:35 am

Re: Helen's maiden surname

Thomas' mother (the Thomas from the censuses above) is Helen Muirhead according to the IGI... hmmm.

But there is a christening on the IGI for Jean Penman
25 May 1845 Old Monkland, Lanark
Father: James Penman
Mother: Helen Lochead

Then you have the Walker variant on her death cert.

Speaking as a phonetician, I can see Lochead and Walker being pronounced enough alike to confuse them. Lochead and Muirhead sounds more like semantic confusion! Hmm. let's see... it was the head of some geographic term... what could it be?

I'd like to see what is on her death cert.

All the best,
Sarah