Elusive William Gray C1854 Haddington/Gifford area

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Marilee36
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri May 01, 2020 6:09 pm
Location: Essex, UK

Elusive William Gray C1854 Haddington/Gifford area

Post by Marilee36 » Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:23 pm

Hi looking for birth of my GGrandfather - William Gray born C1854. have been searching for 20 odd years and cant find birth. I have death, marriage birth of all their children.

His marriage cert 17 May 1878 in Golspie to Betsy/Elizabeth Mclennen has William Gray (Baker Master) as Father and Margaret Gray M/S Gray as Mother.

I did find years ago a record for a Margaret Gray. child William Gray born in fornication! but obviously dont know if this is correct, as there are parents names on marr cert. Can anybody help or advice. Or recommend a good researcher in Scotland to look for me ..

WilmaM
Posts: 1870
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:46 am
Location: Falkirk area

Re: Elusive William Gray C1854 Haddington/Gifford area

Post by WilmaM » Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:52 pm

If he was born in 1854, he may never had his birth recorded, statutory registration began in 1855. Parish registers are great, if a. they baptised the child, b. The act was recorded c. The church records survived.

Have you checked for a marriage for the people on his marriage cert. ( again not full proof as the records may not be extant) but if say the marriage was after his birth, then that record may be correct.

Census records too could help, who was he living with in 1861? And where was his mother in 1851?
Was he the eldest in the family?
Younger sibling births should have the parents marrige date noted, which will help.
Where do the census records say he was born?

Lots of questions/suggestions but no answers I'm afraid, let us know what info you have and well try to steer you along.
Wilma

Marilee36
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri May 01, 2020 6:09 pm
Location: Essex, UK

Re: Elusive William Gray C1854 Haddington/Gifford area

Post by Marilee36 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:17 pm

Hi Wilma

Thanks for responding. Sorry for the delay in replying.

Info as follows

William Gray C1854 Gifford Area Died 24 Feb 1932 Paddington Infirmary London
Married Betsy/Elizabeth Maclennan 17 May 1878 Rhives, Golspie, Sutherland. Died 1906 London
William aged 24, Groom Betsy 20 Both residing at Leith

1901 England Census Marylebone

William Gray H 40 B Scotland
Betsy/Elizabeth McLennan W 39 B Scotland
John 7 Son B Fulham
Mary Ann 4 Dau B Marylebone
Peter 13 Mths Son 30 Oct 1900 Marylebone My Grandfather

1891 Scotland Census St Andrews

William Gray H 36 Cabman Born E. Lothian, Gifford
Betsy 33 W Altrish, Sutherlandshire
Margaret 12 D 26 Aug 1878 B Moffatt Married Arthur Bowden London
Isabella 6 D 22 Dec 1884 St Andrews, Edinburgh} Both born at Shrub Hill Lane Edin Married Robert Tusting London
William 3 Son 23 May 1887 " St Andrews Edin } Still trying to find him

1881 Scotland Census St, Andrews

William Gray 28 H Coachman Gifford, Haddingtonshire
Betsy 23 W Sutherlandshire
Margaret 2 D Moffatt, Dumfriesshire
Isabella Urquhart 40 Visitor "" "" Aunt to Betsy

I havnt been able to find a Marriage for William & Margaret Gray M/S Gray, all are too early to be these people.

This is where it starts to get a bit confusing, I definately need help and new eyes on birth, needs to be clarified or I could be jumping the gun!!

I have a poss family for 1871 and 1861 if i go along the lines that William lied on his marriage cert about father, and is in fact illegitimate.

fingers crossed new eyes and brains can help.
Thanks

WilmaM
Posts: 1870
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:46 am
Location: Falkirk area

Re: Elusive William Gray C1854 Haddington/Gifford area

Post by WilmaM » Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:47 pm

Is this the 1871 you have pencilled in?
Name: William Gray
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Relationship: Son
Mother's Name: Margaret Gray
Gender: Male
Where born: Yester, e lothian
Registration Number: 725
Registration District: Yester
Civil Parish: Yester
County: East Lothian
Address: The Manse
Occupation: Groom
ED: 1
Household Schedule Number: 112
Line: 23
Roll: CSSCT1871_173
Household Members:
Name Age
Margaret Gray 34
William Gray 16
Alexander Gray 14
Peter Gray 9
Andrew Gray 7
David Gray 4
Thomas Gray 1
Margaret Gray 67
[from ancestry]
I've found that family in the 1881 census too on the LDS at SP - there's several other children added with no husband noted. But Mother/Granny Margaret Gray is still present.
I'd be inclined to look at the births of some of those younger children - and see if a father is noted.

It looks as if he may have added a father to make things look respectable . Who were the witnesses at William's marriage? a brother?
Wilma

WilmaM
Posts: 1870
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:46 am
Location: Falkirk area

Re: Elusive William Gray C1854 Haddington/Gifford area

Post by WilmaM » Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:00 pm

It's amazing what a quick 'google' unearths!

I popped in Gray of Yester Parish and got this:https://www.oldscottish.com/yester.html#PoorAppeals

Board of Supervision poor relief appeals - with a link to a Margaret Gray ! it's £3 for a copy mind you, but could be worth it.

Plus: List of Births with no Father's name 1855-1874
Andrew GRAY 24 September 1863 Margaret GRAY Find the father
David GRAY 16 June 1866 Margaret GRAY Find the father
Peter GRAY 15 September 1861 Margaret GRAY Find the father
Thomas GRAY 19 December 1869 Margaret GRAY Find the father
They sound quite a family! [ if they are indeed yours]
Wilma

Marilee36
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri May 01, 2020 6:09 pm
Location: Essex, UK

Re: Elusive William Gray C1854 Haddington/Gifford area

Post by Marilee36 » Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:28 am

Hi Wilma

Witnesses to Marriage were Duncan McRae & Annie Rove or Rose?

Yes to 1871 Census followed by this

Poss 1861 Scotland Census Yester

Margaret Gray 67 Head Oxton, Berwickshire
Margaret Gray 24 Dau Gifford
Helen Gray 21 D Gifford
Thomas Monay 18 Lodger
William Ogilvie 6 Grandson b Gifford E. Lothian Yester
Alexander Scott 4 Grandson Gifford
Margaret 1 Granddaughter Gifford E Lothian.

Scottish indexes: I also have a Haddington Sherriff Court Decree for Margaret Gray son Alexander born 10 Sept 1856 father William Scott, {Slater} illegitimate. I also have birth certs for Alexander, Andrew and Peter all illegitimate, but still nothing for William, looks as though he is the first born. I still need to find Birth Certs for David and Thomas, also need to start looking for William Ogilvie, I think this might be my William Gray, as they seemed to use mothers name on other Census.

Interesting info for you My Grandfathers Full name is Peter Andrew Gray!!!

WilmaM
Posts: 1870
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:46 am
Location: Falkirk area

Re: Elusive William Gray C1854 Haddington/Gifford area

Post by WilmaM » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:45 am

I hadn't looked for the 1861, but that is interesting
Margaret Gray 67 Head Oxton, Berwickshire
Margaret Gray 24 Dau Gifford
Helen Gray 21 D Gifford
as the "List of Births with no Father's name 1855-1874" also has a Helen Gray in the list!
Andrew GRAY 30 October 1870 Helen GRAY Find the father
Margaret GRAY 5 July 1859 Helen GRAY Find the father
Marion GRAY 14 July 1872 Helen GRAY Find the father
Thomas GRAY 19 July 1861 Helen GRAY Find the father
'Your' William doesn't appear on that list as he is pre-1855, but I wonder if maybe there's information in the Kirk Session Records?

The 1851 census gives :
Piece: SCT1851/725 Place: Yester -East Lothian Enumeration District: 2
Civil Parish: Yester Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 0 Page: 6 Schedule: 36
Address: Village Of Gifford

Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
MCCONNEL Agnes Head U F 60 Baker Emp Two Men Ayrshire - Daily
OGILVIE William Nephew U M 24 Baker Midlothian - Cranston
TURNER Thomas Servnt U M 20 Baker Midlothian - Newton

and the 1861:
Piece: SCT1861/725 Place: Yester -East Lothian Enumeration District: 1
Civil Parish: Yester Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Yester
Folio: 1 Page: 9 Schedule: 55
Address: Front Street

Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
OGILVIE William Head U M 28 Merchant Baker And Grocer Midlothian -Cranston
OGILVIE Janet Sister U F 35 Midlothian - Cranston
OGILVIE Georgina Sister U F 30 Midlothian - Cranston
SMITH Agnes Niece U F 12 East Lothian - Haddington
PLANK James Servnt U M 20 Baker (Journeyman) Midlothian - Portobello

So that is looking more and more likely - William knew a lot about his father, just didn't use the correct surname.
Baker William never seems to marry, but lives on in Gifford/Yester with his sisters until 1911.

This is a curious family.
Wilma

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