Where did Nellie go?

[nelmit]

There is a marriage in 1888 of Mary Ann Muir Murray to a Loag but it isn't Samuel.

Regards,
Annette M

[Brenda]

Hi Annette

Yes I downloaded the birth for a Helen Murray [ illegitimate] 1st Jan 1889 Mother Jane Logue, father James Murray? Don't think that's the Helen I'm looking for. and I have the certificate for the marriage of SAMUEL Loag [ coachman] to Mary Ann Muir Murray 8th June 1888 in Cadder.

[nelmit]

Hi Annette

I have the certificate for the marriage of SAMUEL Loag [ coachman] to Mary Ann Muir Murray 8th June 1888 in Cadder.

Sorry Brenda, I just put S in the male forename and it came up with 0.

Annette

[DavidWW]

Hello all,
I went back over my copious Loag notes from over a month ago and there is something fishy going on... Nellie's surname varies quite a bit, as does her relationship to the head of household. I had thought before that she was the daughter of Mary Martin and Hugh Caw, but that latest marriage document messes up that theory.

But where was Helen/Nellie in 1891 ?, - not with Samuel and Mary ...........


David,

Nellie was with Samuel and Mary in 1891:

1891
Gartsherrie Cottages
Cadder Eastern District, Lanarkshire
Samuel Loag, 22, Head, born Glasgow, Grocer's Vanman
Mary Loag, 24, Wife, born Gourock, Renfrew
Nellie Loag, Daur, 8 Mo, born Glasgow

Did you mean 1901? In which case, she was with the woman who is supposed to be her mother and called "Helen Caw"

Yes, I did mean 1901 !! – see proofreading, see difficult !

1901
10 Maxwell St, Eastwood, Pollokshaws, Renfrewshire
M Smith, 36, Head, born Glasgow, Confection Shopkeeper
David Smith, 16, Son, born Ns, Fruiterer Clerk
Mary Caw, 12, Step Daur, born Ns, Scholar
Helen Caw, 10, Step Daur, born Ns (I guess this means unknown), Scholar

...which led me to believe before that she was the daughter of Mary Martin and Hugh Caw-- and why is she called the "step-daughter"?

The Mary Caw, age 12, was enumerated as the daughter of Hugh and Mary Martin in 1891. But then, so were David and William, who are called Smith in later censuses...

David Smith is David Martin SMITH, parents William SMITH and Mary SMITH MS LOAG, born 1884 in St Rollox, - in other words further confirmation that this is the correct family.

Why step-daughter? Nae idea !, except that ………

And the plot thickens ……. Mary CAW was born illegitimate as Mary Martin CAW, mother Jane CAW, in St Rollox in 1888 ……………

Hugh B Caw was married twice, first to Mary Ann YOUNG in Perth in 1870, and they had a daughter Jane in Perth in 1871.

1891
Moodiesburn, Cadder Eastern District, Lanarkshire
Hugh B Caw, 40, Head, born Perth, Perthshire, Railway Storesman
Mary Caw, 47, Wife, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Railway Storesman's Wife
David Caw, 6, Son, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire
William Caw, 4, Son, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Mary M Caw, 2, Daur, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Mary Loag, 26, Step Dr, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire

Married in 1882, it should be the case that David, William and Mary M are the “fruits” of this marriage !, - except see above and the post re the poor relief info above ...........

26 year old Mary is correctly described as Hugh's step daughter.

1901
Hugh B Caw, 50, Head, born Perth, Railway Stores Man
William Smith, 14, Grandson, born Glasgow, Railway Weighers Assistant

And he’s a widower, since Mary CAW previously LOAG, MS MARTIN died in 1898 ............

I am still confused whose daughter Nellie is. If, as it now appears from the marriage to William Smith, it was Mary Martin Loag who was her mother, not Mary Martin the former wife of Samuel Loag, then the father is impossible to name. Unless... he was a relative of Hugh Caw (let's hope not Hugh himself, being her stepfather) and thus the name Caw given to Nellie at her birth. Any idea where else one could look to untangle this? I'm hoping there is something in the poor relief application that Annette found.

This may turn out to be one of these situations where we may never be able to work it out.

As I see it, on the basis of current info, Helen/Nellie LOAG was most probably the Nellie Caw LOAG born to Mary (Martin) LOAG 1890 in St Rollox, married to William SMITH on but with Mary denying that William SMITH was the father.

But Ah hae ma doots if we'll ever know who was the father .........

Given that Hugh B Caw was Mary (Martin) LOAG's stepfather, why give her wain his surname as a middle name?

But where does Helensburgh and being brought up by an aunt fit in ??......

This one is really daein ma heid in

A whiff of incest, perchance ???……………… unless, of course, a son of Hugh B CAW was involved ??..............

Just to totally confuse matters there is an illegitimate birth to a Jane CAW in Dunblane in the county of Perth in 1893 of a Helen Stewart CAW, re-registered in Barony registration district in Glasgow ............

David

[DavidWW]

Hi Sarah,

The only reason I didn't post the poorhouse application is that it doesn't throw any light on Helen/Nellie.

What it does tell you though will make sense in regard to Mary M Caw.

1891
Moodiesburn, Cadder Eastern District, Lanarkshire
Hugh B Caw, 40, Head, born Perth, Perthshire, Railway Storesman
Mary Caw, 47, Wife, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Railway Storesman's Wife
David Caw, 6, Son, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire
William Caw, 4, Son, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Mary M Caw, 2, Daur, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Mary Loag, 26, Step Dr, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire

Poorhouse Application -

Date of application 5/9/07

Mary Martin Caw born 12/5/88 at 193 Castle St illegitimate daughter of Jane Caw entry 840 /1888 st Rollox
516 Garbraid St /Robertson
19 single
Parents Hugh Caw and Jeanie Martin (scored out and replaced with) illegitimate of Jeanie Caw
Brought up by grandfather Hugh Caw who works on Cal Railway (Stores) who died 2 years last April in Crosshill.
William born Eastern District Hospital 13/2/08
Peter 21/7/1911 15 Kenmore St Shettleston
Father Peter Stevenson.
Applies for admission pregnant first time 4 months gone to Hugh Quinn a ticket collector Maryhill Station.

As far as I can work out Helen/Nellie is the grand daughter of Mary Martin and Samuel Loag snr and Mary is the illegitimate grand daughter of Hugh Caw and ????
All very complicated but I will look again at The Mitchell for other applications although I don't hold out much hope.

Kind regards,
Annette M

Hugh Barclay CAW died in 1905 in the registration district of Cathcart, which includes Crosshill, Railway Storeman, widower of [1] Mary Ann MUIR (?- should be YOUNG.....), [2] Mary MARTIN or LOAG ..........

David

[Brenda]

In the name o' the wee man.....I just cannie make heid nor tail of this.
On HELEN LOAG's marriage cert. her parents are Samuel Loag and Mary -Ann Muir Murray. She was the daughter of Mary Martin Smith , nee Loag ,father unknown?
So does that mean that her brother Samuel and his wife adopted her?
As you all know her birth cert says Nellie Caw Loag, or Smith, which one do I use to search in SP?

My thanks again to all of you for trying to sort out this mess.

[DavidWW]

In the name o' the wee man.....I just cannie make heid nor tail of this.
On HELEN LOAG's marriage cert. her parents are Samuel Loag and Mary -Ann Muir Murray. She was the daughter of Mary Martin Smith , nee Loag ,father unknown?
So does that mean that her brother Samuel and his wife adopted her?
As you all know her birth cert says Nellie Caw Loag, or Smith, which one do I use to search in SP?

My thanks again to all of you for trying to sort out this mess.

Think of it this way round.

Form what we know so far the following is known, or appears to be the case.

Mary MARTIN married Samuel LOAG in 1859. Samuel died in 1880, following which Mary married Hugh Barclay CAW (just to add to the fun, a divorcee!)

Mary and Samuel had a number of children, among whom were Mary and Samuel (see below for the full list).

Mary Martin LOAG, b. 1864, m. William SMITH, and they had at least two wains, David, b. 1884, William, b. 1886. If the Nellie Caw LOAG b. 28Jul1890 is the person sought in this situation, and is the daughter of Mary SMITH MS LOAG, then the couple had last seen each other in May 1889 (as declared on the birth register entry, - it had to this way, as the presumption in Scots Law was that the husband was the father). And, BTW, for the BMD indexes in Scotland, there is an index entry under all the surnames shown. In other words, in this case, the birth register entry should have been indexed under SMITH and LOAG.

There is only one match for the infant Nellie Caw LOAG or SMITH in the 1891 census, and this is an 8 month old "daughter" of Samuel LOAG (brother of Mary Martin LOAG) and his wife Mary Ann Muir MURRAY. The age match, - the census was in early April, - is exact.

There is no record of the birth of a Helen or Nellie to Samuel LOAG and Mary Ann Muir LOAG MS MARTIN.

For the moment, at least, the presumption is that the 8m old Nellie in the 1891 census in the household of Samuel LOAG and Mary Ann Muir LOAG MS MURRAY is actually the daughter of Mary Martin SMITH MS LOAG !!, "parked" with her uncle and aunt, if not informally adopted...

On her 1910 marriage to Robert McCRACKEN Herln LOAG gives her parents as Samuel LOAG and Mary Ann Muir LOAG MS MURRAY.

Why? Probably because she was brought up knowing them as her parents.

This 1901 census entry fits in ..........

1901
10 Maxwell St, Eastwood, Pollokshaws, Renfrewshire
M Smith, 36, Head, born Glasgow, Confection Shopkeeper (age matchs that for Mary Martin SMITH MS LOAG)
David Smith, 16, Son, born Ns, Fruiterer Clerk (matches 1884 birth of David to William SMITH and Mary Martin SMITH MS LOAG)
Mary Caw, 12, Step Daur, born Ns, Scholar (the joker!?!, - there is a Mary CAW born illegitimate as Mary Martin CAW, mother Jane CAW, in St Rollox in 1888 …………… Hugh B Caw was married twice, first to Mary Ann YOUNG in Perth in 1870, and they had a daughter Jane in Perth in 1871....)
Helen Caw, 10, Step Daur, born Ns (I guess this means unknown), Scholar ("oor" Nellie ?!?!)

One question that arises is where is David's younger brother William, which we've already answered, as he turns up in the household of Hugh B CAW as "grandson", which, strictly speaking, he's not, but usage back than was much laxer than today, and step-grandson was an awfy mouthful.

As to why Mary SMITH MS LOAG couldn't give a place of birth for the three kids, - wha kens? Was she deliberately dissembling?..... BTW I take "NS" to mean as "Not Shown", - i.e. not shown on the census schedule given by Mary to the census enumerator. He really should have queried this when he collected the schedule, but probably didn't, and when carrying out the transcription from the schedules to the enumeration book, let it rest at "NS" rather than returning to 10 Maxwell Street.

I'm fairly certain that the situation is as laid out above, but it's one of these totally fascinating situations where there may never be any absolute proof, as, wha kens?, what statutory/census records were never made, or are hiding behind near impenetrable misrecordings/mistranscriptions ?

Everything, however, in this jigsaw puzzle, with the one exception, fits neatly so far. The exception is the story of Helen/Nellie being brought up in Helensburgh, but then, maybe that happened after 1901 ......... except that her address on her marriage register entry in 1910 is 4 Maxwell Street !!

One potentially curious aspect is the middle name of Nellie/Helen LOAG or SMITH, of CAW...........

A longstanding custom in Scotland in the case of an illegitimate birth was to give the child as a middle name the surname of the alleged father.

If that were the case here, it would imply that the father was a son of Hugh B CAW, some other connected male CAW, or, shock, horror!!, Hugh Barclay CAW himself; except that this custom was far from universal, with family surnames also occasionally being used, since, as possibly here, it may have been the case that the step-father of Mary Martin SMITH MS LOAG, Hugh Barclay CAW, provided valuable assistance to his stepdaughter, - after all she had sons aged 4 and 6 to look after while she was pregnant, forbye having split from or been deserted by William SMITH, - recognised by the child being given CAW as a middle name..........

David


Father: Samuel Logue, Mother: Mary Martin

WILLIAM LOGUE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 05 FEB 1860 Central District, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland

THOMAS LOGG - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 22 JUL 1861 Springburn, Lanark, Scotland

ANN SPRATT LOAG - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 17 MAY 1863 Central District, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland

MARY MARTIN LOGUE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 09 DEC 1864 Central District, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland

SAMUEL LOAG - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 18 MAR 1866 Central District, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland

SAMUEL LOAG - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 29 MAY 1868 Central District, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland

MARGARET LOGUE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 08 FEB 1872 Central District, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland

DAVID MARTIN LOAG - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 05 AUG 1874 High Church, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland

[Brenda]

Oh my David

You certainly have put a lot of time and effort into that . thank you...

BUT, who is the M Smith in the 1901 Census?

Mary Martin Loag married WILLIAM Smith , age on the marriage cert is 25, [ born abt 1858 ]

The M Smith on the census age 36 doesn't match?

[DavidWW]

Oh my David

You certainly have put a lot of time and effort into that . thank you...

BUT, who is the M Smith in the 1901 Census?

Mary Martin Loag married WILLIAM Smith , age on the marriage cert is 25, [ born abt 1858 ]

The M Smith on the census age 36 doesn't match?

See when I get interested

The 1901 age of 36 gives derived years of birth of 1864/65 which matches with Mary Martin LOGUE - IGI Birth shown as 09 DEC 1864 Central District, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland. The others in the household make it near certain that the "M" is Mary.

Mary's age on the 1883 marriage register entry to William SMITH is 18, not 25, with 18 also giving derived years of birth of 1864/65 ........ it was William who was 25 .........

David

[Brenda]

Guess I should have used better punctuation David, thought that by using bold it was seen to mean that William's age was 25

I know I'm an eejit, but M Smith age 36 on the census doesn't collate to W Smith B 1858 according to the marriage cert?
He, William, would have been 43, why is his initial M instead of W?