How poor is poor enough?.....

[SarahND]

Hi all,
I understand from DavidWW's recently added FAQ that organized poor relief in Scotland only began in 1845. I have an ancestor who died in Glasgow apparently just before the 1841 census and was more or less destitute at his death. It seems the poor relief would have been organized by the Presbyterian Church at that time. My question is, how poor did you have to be to receive poor relief? It seems from the applications I have read on TS that they looked into all your relatives to see if anyone could help you out, before they would take you in charge.

In the letter written in November 1841 from Glasgow by the infamous R.Ritchie/Petrie/Retrie etc. (http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4846) to my great great grandmother in Connecticut, he describes her father's destitute circumstances before his death and says: ".. and had it not been for his son must have been badly off ". I take this to mean that his son was helping him out financially (generous of him, since his father had deserted the family when he was about 13) and I'm assuming this would mean that he would not then have been helped by the church. Does anyone know any differently? Are there existing records of poor relief before 1845? Might the search for relatives who could help out have been the impetus that resulted in the son's eventual help (and therefore there might be a record of it...)?

I am awaiting with impatience the Glasgow deaths and burials announced for "soon" on the Glasgow & West of Scotland FHS site. If I could know exactly when he died, it would clarify a number of things (well, "Hope springs eternal" as my 90 year old mother is fond of quoting ).

Sarah

[Russell]

Hello Sarah

The whole Poor Relief thing in Scotland is tied up over the centuries with religion, politics, finance and government ineptitude.

When Scotland was Roman Catholic way back the church were the main recipients of rents (mostly in kind) and parishes were encouraged to look after their own parishioners in times of need. Which they appeared to do fairly well despite the larcenous behaviour of some clerics.

As the country was pushed toward Calvinism although the clerical authority was changing most of the money which previously went to the church was not redirectd towards the new faith (Since many of the Abbots and clergy were the lesser sons of influential nobles)
This meant that although parishes were nominally the same the minister now in place had no cleary defined income with which to support the poor and destitute
Disruptions by wars, Cromwellian invasion and sundry changes of Royalty happening meant that consideration of the poor took a back seat and only parishes where there was some compassion from the local Laird seemed to give succour to the needy.
Further disruption of funding came during the Seccession years when breakaway churches were formed which were themselves dependent on the generosity of their adherents. Although various Parliamentary Acts were passed to favour the poor, the mechanisms and cash to put them into practice were never put in place.

Firm Governmental control in the 1800's established systems and defined responsibility as lying with the Parochial Councils. Only then did formal recording begin nationally. Prior to that time Parish Council records may or may not contain details of relief payments made to paupers. Where church financial records have survived some list the names of recipients.
Paupers generally received only enough assistance to augment support that their family were able to give.
Only the aged, mentally or physically infirm were taken in to be given in-house care usually in Combination Poorhouses. Some of these had surprisingly small numbers of residents
Rural areas generally appeared to support their poor rather better than the urban parishes which were probably over whelmed by the influx from the country as the industrial revolution gathered pace.

How we treat our poor is a fascinating aspect in a nations development.

Russell

[Falkyrn]

If you have a look at http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/haynin/haynin1404.htm there are extracts there of the various reports into the Poor Relief and its application (or lack thereof) in Scotland
JJ

[Russell]

Thanks for that Falkyrn

Its fascinating to read about what the authorities wanted to happen then to read the Parish records about the reality.
So far I haven't found a relative who was subjected to the inquisition that some poor folks were forced to submit to.

Russell

[SarahND]

Thanks Russell and Falkyrn!

It is indeed interesting to read the discussions of what to do about the poor and to see the different opinions that were current at the time and the different angles from which they viewed the situation.

I also dipped into the Glasgow Digital Library and found references to many of the people and places that my ggg grandfather mentioned in his letters from 1837

It seems that it will be hit or miss to find anything relating to a given person before 1845, but I might get lucky... I know he was a member of "St Mary's Chaple" as he said, which is called St Mary's Episcopal Church in a reference I just found in the Digital Library.

Certainly worth some further digging...
Sarah