birthplace on poor relief application

[bluebell2go]

My Great Grandfather, Richard McIlwain, had his place of birth stated as England on every census from 1871 to 1901 apart from 1881 when it is given as Glasgow. His mother Margaret, gave his birthplace on the poor relief application in 1871 as Blochairn Iron Works, where she had previously been living according to the census earlier in the same year. I know he was born around 1867 and cannot find any record of his birth on SP. I've tried under 3 names, Richard McIlwain, Richard Gribben, (his father's name) and Richard Stead, as Charles Stead was subsequently his stepfather.

Would there have been any benefit to Margaret in lying about his place of birth on the Poor Relief Application, and did they demand to see birth lines for confirmation? I notice that at the end of the application the words "not chargeable" were written across the page. I am wondering if she lied and then felt she had to continue the lie for the 1881 census. By 1891 he was married and would have answered the question himself.

I have no idea where in England he may have been born as his mother was born in Main Street Gorbals around 1841 (or so she claimed) and all censuses show Scotland for her. The only clue is that he is the illegitimate son of Richard Gribben, a labourer in America, so I am wondering if there is a connection with Liverpool as the main port of departure. The information is so sketchy that I feel I've hit a brick wall on this line.

Any advice on this would be much appreciated.

Bluebell

[Tracey]

Hi Bluebell

Have you tried looking on http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl ?

These are the results with the names given

Births Sep 1880
McILWAIN Richard Oadley - Nottingham 7b 308

Births Jun 1886
MCILWAIN Richard - Stockport 8a 62

Births Dec 1907
McIlwain Richard - Warrington 8c 203

Births Jun 1879
Gribben Richard - Truro 5c 147

Births Jun 1889
Gribben Richard John - Redruth 5c 283


None appear to be yours though

Happy searching !

[bluebell2go]

Thanks Tracey

I think these dates are all too late. There was one Richard Gribben born in Glasgow in the right year, but later I found that he died as a baby.

Regards

Bluebell

[joette]

I have seen Poor Relief Appls,one in particular which sticks in my mind where the Mother was
1-Not sure where her only child was born-in her parents home(one Parish),where she was working(another.)
2-The name of the child's Father although she claimed he had been courting her for 2 years.!
3-Was not sure when he was born& what she had named him.
Poor boy was 17,ill with TB.& his Mother had not seen him for 15 years & the report stated"I would not recognise my son if he walked in this door"
I have seen others where for whatever reason -they genuinely did not know where they were born,they are lying for whatever reason or are unsure-maybe born somewhere but brought up somewhere else.
I have a GGGreat-grandmother who states she may have been born in Ireland(her Father & sister certainly were.) but she is unsure.

[bluebell2go]

Thanks, Joette

I've only been doing my tree for about two months. I've got back to great great grandparents with names of some GGGs. Most of them are just that - names and dates and maybe occupations, but the story of Margaret McIlwain and her son Richard seems to be jumping off the screen at me. I don't suppose their stories are remarkable given social conditions at the time, but they seem tragic by modern day standards.

The amount of contradictions, name changes, address changes, occupation changes is fascinating. There are enough connections for me to be sure I am following the same family, I wonder if they were constantly fleeing from debt collectors. They certainly were destitute.
After the poorhouse where she lost 2 children, she went on to have another 2, one died of convulsions after 2 days (no medical attendant) and the other of teething(?) (no medical attendant). I suppose in those days, the 1870s, there would be no post mortem to establish cause of death or any action taken against parents who did not seek medical attention because there was none if you couldn't pay. Ironically this was in Weaver Street, close to where the Royal Infirmary is now. I don't know if it was there at that time.

Cheers

Bluebell

[joette]

Yes when you look at the Stats for maternal & infant mortality rates in the 19th Century then yes life was shocking.
Think this was before inoculations,antibiotics,blood-transfusions & even an
uncontaminated water supply.
Add to this overcrowding,malnutrition,ignorance,alcoholism,drug abuse(opium et al)accidents,STD's & life was pretty precarious.
Victorian Social commentators often called Glasgow the poverty capital of the nation.
With often no recourse to anything but the "Parish" you would often be judged worthy/unworthy of relief based on your morals.
Some people want to go back to Victorian Morals-where babies died on the street,youngsters were sold into sexual slavery & a woman had no or few rights over her body& her children.
No thank you not for me.
Good luck with the search & a Poor Relief Appl.is often a great source of
family history unobtainable elsewhere.

[Russell]

Hi Bluebell

You've done well getting back a couple of generations in only a couple of months

I agree with your thoughts on how awful it must have been for some of our ancestors. At least when they lived in the country thee was often someone who was good at helping with childbirth or a person who knew what to do when a child had a temperature, but when folk moved into the town they moved around quite a bit (or at least mine did) and they would not know who to turn to when someone was ill. No money meant no medical care.
Just to put it in perspective. I'm old enough to remember when there was no NHS and the Doctor took out your tonsils on your kitchen table. So the good times are, relatively, recent.
Poor Margaret though. To lose four children is an awful thought. If the children were so sickly what must she have been like? Undernourished, possibly with Rickets, suffering vitamin deficiencies and probably protein deficiency. Living in overcrowded rooms with terrible smoke pollution. What a picture I'm glad I live NOW

Russell

[emanday]

I suppose in those days, the 1870s, there would be no post mortem to establish cause of death or any action taken against parents who did not seek medical attention because there was none if you couldn't pay.

I was born and suffered a life threatening illness only a matter of weeks before the Welfare State started. If it hadn't been for the generosity of our neighbours, who couldn't pay their next due rent as a result, I would not be here today. Although my parents managed to pay for a doctor to attend, without that money I'd not have got the penicillin that saved my life.

I'm not of pensionable age just yet, so that isn't that long ago.

[bluebell2go]

I recently read a book "Irish" by John Burrowes, which explains the impact of the Irish Potato Famine and consequent migration to Scotland, especially Glasgow. It goes into quite a lot of detail about conditions in Ireland at that time as well as the disastrous government policies. Then it focuses on conditions in Glasgow and the explosion in population and the contribution of the Irish labourers to the building of Glasgow. I found it an excellent background to my family research. Just being aware of the dates of the famine helped me to understand why some lines just seemed to disappear, and couldn't be found in Scotland.

I also read some of the works of William Thomas Stead, editor of the Northern Echo, (not connected with my Steads!), who campaigned against child prostitution in London. Very interesting, if shocking, reading.

I know many of the old hands on this forum will be well aware of all of this and if they could recommend any other reading I would be grateful.
I've read the more lightweight stuff like "Up oor Close", but I need something a bit more factual, rather than nostalgic. I dodged history as a subject at Whitehill School. Think I'm making up for it now, though!

Last week I visited the new Kelvingrove Museum and had a walk in the park and I was thinking exactly what others on the forum have said about their hypocrisy. How could the Victorians build such grand public buildings and yet so many were in abject poverty.

I've been listening to the news while writing this and heard Menzies Campbell saying that he was born in a Glasgow tenement. I get a bit annoyed when this is always automatically connected with poverty because there are tenements and tenements. I certainly wouldn't object to one in the West End! I know Menzies went to Hillhead High a few years ahead of my husband, so does anyone know where exactly he grew up?

[joette]

Well put Bluebell it is the hypocrisy of the Victorians that sticks in my craw.
Covering up table legs in case it gave any salicious thoughts to the men whilst young children where dying of Syphillis& the like from the abuse at the hands of these "gentlemen" Babies drugged on laudunum because their Mothers knew no better or to drug away their hunger cries.It makes me weep to think how they must have suffered.
Most of my ancestors were lucky enough to have lived through these times not in abject poverty but hand-to-mouth exsitence in the main.Mostly masons,blacksmiths,Ag Labs.carters,wheelrights etc.
The women seem to have been a stoic lot with a means of bringing in an income too & the ability to stretch the pennies.
Many had nursing skills& I know my Great-Grandparents were unofficial
health advisers.My Great-Granny was a midwife & I know off at least two premature babies-one about 12 weeks early that she saved-a wooden box lined with sheepskin& placed near the range.She also laid out the dead.The village Dr would call on her services when needed.My Great-grandfather had wanted to be a Dr but as one of ten & his Fathers a coachman there was no chance of that.He seemed to have the healing touch & was succesful in helping many of his neighbours who couldn't afford the shilling for the Dr.
My Granny's cousin was a District Nurse in London in the 1920's&30's.
One of her pieces of equipment was a hammer& nail. She would leave her hat & coat outside hanging on it's temporary hook to avoid infestation from the bugs that plagued so many dwellings.
She often said that the main killer was malnourishment & a lack of fresh air.
I bet you a pound to a penny that Menzies grew up in a "wally" (hope I got the spelling right)close.