Poor Relief Application - Possible Extras?

[JackyHSF]

Hi

I'm wondering if anyone familiar with the Poor Relief Applications at The Mitchell can help me out with a query (well, quite a few queries actually ) on how to proceed with further research please.

I struck lucky on my first daytrip there (wish it could have been the week I feel I needed) and, amongst other things, found an application for Ann Spence Calderwood which gave me a wonderful amount of info (a real insight into her - hard - life and that of her family), including:

"28/12/65 On Yellow Roll till this date. Struck off by Committee & offered Poorhouse. Repeatedly told lies as to her son Peter, who is in the Reformatory, & Jessie said to be at school is working. Came to the Committee this morning very much the worse of drink.
See L Cases Vol 32 p78 July 1866."

So please, can anyone tell me what and where 'the Reformatory' would have been and why a boy (Peter was born 1851) would be committed to it? Is there likely to be a record of his commital there? Could this be what 'See L Cases Vol 32 p78 July 1866' is about? (I thought I'd found all the applications about Ann Spence - 1858, 1870 and 1871, but maybe missed another one - or more?). Are these volumes still extant and can they be viewed? Is there anywhere I can find out what conditions in the reformatory were like? (Peter was out and working as a stationer's packer in 1871 so presumably it set hin back 'on the straight and narrow').

A later application of 1870 states:

"She was chargeable to City Parish (Books seen) in March 1858, when the husband was in the Royal Infirmary by Subsculus? line (live?), again in December 1865, on Yellow Roll at 3/- per week, when she was struck off the Roll by Committee and offered Poor House. She is refused again in July 1866, but the decision is not entered in the book I saw."

Should there be another application detailed somewhere for July 1866 when she is refused? Could that be the See L Cases reference? Is it safe to assume that she refused going to the Poorhouse? (Husband Matthew died June 1858 in Perth - is it likely that he would have been sent back there 'to die' at the charge of his home parish as they'd only been in Glasgow for just under 5 years?)

From this I would guess that 'the Yellow Roll' detailed outrelief - is this right and is it possible to view it and is there likely to be any 'extra' information (say disbursements for clothing and footwear or the like) there? Or perhaps details of the "lies" she told about her children?

Sorry that's ended up being a huge number of queries, but I'm hoping for another trip to Glasgow in July, so am trying to prepare as well as I can so I don't lose valuable time - so if anyone can point me in the right direction(s) I'd be most grateful.


Jacky

[JimM]

Hi Jacky

I struck lucky on my first daytrip there (wish it could have been the week I feel I needed)

I know the feeling, I've been lots of times and still have to drag myself away when I'm there.

Should there be another application detailed somewhere for July 1866 when she is refused? Could that be the See L Cases reference?

In my experience if there were subsequent applications they would be added to the original... I have examples where so many applications were added that extra pages had to be glued to the record.
The "L" numbering on these old records are contemporary and are really no use to us....the Mitchell have indexed the records using their own system (D-Hew etc.)

So please, can anyone tell me what and where 'the Reformatory' would have been and why a boy (Peter was born 1851) would be committed to it?

The Reformatory school was an institution to "reform" wayward children through discipline and education. There were quite a few Reformatory schools and you may have to look through a lot of school registers (the staff at the Mitchell will point you in the right direction), there are no "names index"
Generally you won't find out much.... you may find out why he was sent (the ones I have seen are mostly for minor theft or truancy).
One of mine gives the boy's name and age, says he was sent by sheriff Waddle under "section 15" for 2 years.
It says that his father had absconded and gives the mothers address.
Don't assume that your lad was guilty of anything..... I have seen records where boys as young as 7 years were sent to reformatory for being found wandering the streets at night.

is it likely that he would have been sent back there 'to die' at the charge of his home parish as they'd only been in Glasgow for just under 5 years?)

Possible, but unlikely.... if he was dying the Poor relief committee would have offered him Poor relief and then charged his care to Perth.

Should there be another application detailed somewhere for July 1866 when she is refused? Could that be the See L Cases reference? Is it safe to assume that she refused going to the Poorhouse?

"She is refused" means that she applied for relief and was (for whatever reason) turned down.

is there likely to be any 'extra' information (say disbursements for clothing and footwear or the like) there? Or perhaps details of the "lies" she told about her children?

You already have details of the lies she told about the children.... she was getting relief for the family but one of the children was working instead of at school (and therefore earning income for the household). She also forgot to mention that her boy was in the reformatory school and therefore not in need of Parish relief.

It is a possibility that the boy was also working and was sent to the reformatory for truancy.

Edit... just noticed that the boy would have been 15 at the time... so forget that last bit

Jim

[JackyHSF]

Hi Jim

Thanks for your reply it's really helpful.

I thought there might be another application (or file) I'd missed as there was nothing in the file after Ann had been 'struck off' in 1865. I was hoping for another report on a home visit to up-date me on the family, but c'est la vie.

I wondered about the details of the 'lies' as she also states that her eldest son by her first marriage is a shoemaker living in America, when as far as I can trace him, he was a slater living in Glasgow, but I suppose that wouldn't necessarily affect her income if he wasn't living with Ann, so the inspector wouldn't pursue that.

I'd like to have a look through the Reformatory records - maybe knowing the family's location will help narrow down the search - as I'd like to see why and for how long Peter was there if I can possibly find out. It might also give an insight into the conditions he lived under - I can't imagine they would be 'pleasant'.

Perhaps poor Matthew went back to his home town of Perth to see the children of his first marriage before he died and simply didn't make it back to his second family.

I found out so much that was absolutely fascinating (and very moving) last time at The Mitchell that I'm really keen to ensure I explore all the avenues I can and don't miss anything!

Thanks for the advice.

Jacky

[nelmit]

Hi Jim


I wondered about the details of the 'lies' as she also states that her eldest son by her first marriage is a shoemaker living in America, when as far as I can trace him, he was a slater living in Glasgow, but I suppose that wouldn't necessarily affect her income if he wasn't living with Ann, so the inspector wouldn't pursue that.

Jacky

Hello Jacky,

His income would have affected her claim if he was working and earned enough. The inspectors would have expected him to help support his mother.

One of mine claimed he had no idea where two of his sons lived and said another was in Australia.
They were all living within a mile of his daughter's house where he had been living.

Kind regards,
Annette M

PS
It is always worth having a look for children's applications too.

[JackyHSF]

Hi Annette

Thanks for that tip on the children. Unfortunately, it didn't occur to me until I had very little time left that there might be applications by Ann's children once they were grown up.

I did look for and found one for her youngest child, William, the details of which had me reaching sureptitiously for my hankie and dabbing my eyes. The poor man lost his first wife after just four months of marriage and then five of his children by his second wife died in infancy (she'd already lost three out of four from her first marriage). He suffered from heart disease and pleurisy and was unable to work as a hammerman for the last eight years of his life and finally died at just 55. His poor widow married again and was deserted within a few months and then she died of cancer a couple of years later. I need to look for applications for the four surviving children - I do so hope they ended up with better lives than their poor parents.

It's true - we really don't know how easy some of us (living in the same country) have it these days. It must have been such a struggle just to keep body and soul together and not give up when tragedy after tragedy became almost a daily staple of life. It's very easy to sympathise with the lies they told to the Poor Relief inspectors to try to make things a little better for themselves and their families.

I hope to get more than a day at The Mitchell next time as I know there's just so much to look for and - I hope - find, that will tell me so much more than names and dates. Thanks for the encouragement.

Regards

Jacky

[AnnieMack]

Jacky

I could have a look on Saturday and even get the volume refs to save you some time if you like.

Let me know!

Annie

[JackyHSF]

Hi Annie

Thank you so much for the offer - it would certainly give me a 'flying start'. If you're sure you want to do that then let me know and I'll give you as much info as I have in a PM.

Regards

Jacky

[Jack]

Hi Jacky,
I can see the 3 applications that you mentioned for Ann Calderwood m/s Spence,
but none for around 1865 or 1866.
-
1858. D-HEW. 10/2/17. Page 161.
1870. D-HEW. 14/43. Page 31368.
1871. D-HEW. 14/45. Page 32320. (also under Ann Parrie)
--
If there was a new application to a different Parish it should be in the name index - but seems not.
Any new ones were usually added to an earlier record if it was known that there was one;
ie presuming that the new application was made in the same parish.
But some folk didn't always mention that they'd previously applied for relief....
This would normally soon be found out because you had to give your previous addresses.
It was very important to the Parish to know where you'd been living,
as this would decide who was responsible for any payments.

Your Residences often determined which Parish would be footing the bill.
And this would be known as the Settlement Parish.
But it could also be where you or your hubby were born, or where you'd lived over the years.
The residential requirements (maybe 2 or 3 yrs) varied by Parish & also at different times over the years.

The three Glasgow Parishes being Barony, Glasgow (City), Govan.
Not all books have survived; there are a few missing here and there.
--
I "think" (don't quote me!) that the L Cases refer to letters that contain very little on individuals.
And not too sure if any of these volumes have survived; some might have.
Archives though should be able to say - and also explain what they actually were.
--
Jack

[JackyHSF]

Hi Jack

Thanks very much for that - at least I know now that I haven't missed an application for Ann Spence/Calderwood/Purves.

I noted that at the end of each application notice was sent to Perth (where Ann was born), so presumably the cost of supporting Ann and her family was 'recharged' in some way to her 'home' parish, even though by 1871 she'd been living in Glasgow for 25 years.

I'll enquire at The Mitchell as to what the 'L' cases are and if they're extant - you never know.

Maybe the 1866 application was rejected without a home visit as they were well aware that her circumstances hadn't changed since the previous year. Or could be that the relevant page was attached to the original 1858 file, but got lost or perhaps that someone was having a bad day and missed out on doing the follow up paperwork!

Annie has very kindly agreed to search the index for Ann's children by her first two husbands, so I'm crossing my fingers that there's more to discover.

Once again, thanks for your kind look ups.

Regards

Jacky

[nelmit]

Jacky

I could have a look on Saturday and even get the volume refs to save you some time if you like.

Let me know!

Annie

Annie,

I hope you see this before you go.

There is no production in the archives today. You will still be able to look up the index but will not be able to view any records held.

Kind regards,
Annette M