question on Lairs/burial

Kathy · Post by **Kathy** » Wed May 20, 2009 11:57 pm

I have located information on the owner of a Lair, and also information on one burial in 1898.

I emailed the cemetery, the reply says there are 11 interred in the Lair, payment of a charge will give me name & dates, but not much further information.

It's hard to get the mind around 11 interred in one Lair, so I am assuming some are remains after cremation, there is no headstone.

My question is, if I know the owner of the Lair in 1898, is there a term of ownership? would all interred be related/connected to the Lair owner? or after x period does the Lair revert back to the cemetery?.

Kathy

WilmaM · Post by **WilmaM** » Thu May 21, 2009 8:51 am

Burial lairs vary in depth depending on the ground/ water table etc.

My family ones in Glasgow can take 4, but my cousin's in Renfrew only 3.
Some will be double Lairs or wider as families buy ajoining lairs, when a cemetery opens for example.

I know one my GGrand father bought was a double as his wife was something high up in an organisation and they wanted to erect a very large memorial that wouldn't fit a normal sized plot.

So eleven doesn't seem excessive, esp as a child can be intered with an adult or [I think I've seen written] at the head or feet.

As far as I'm aware a burial plot is bought outright in Scotland [something they are trying to alter] so the deeds can be passed down the family for the different generations.

Where is the lair you are interested in?
Perhaps somebody here could visit it and see what headstone there is or look up an MI book for you.
If it's not one covered by an online index like http://www.memento-mori.co.uk/ or a Family History Society.

apanderson · Post by **apanderson** » Thu May 21, 2009 10:29 am

Hi Kathy,

Which cemetery?

As Wilma said, a lot depends on depth etc.

In the case of children being buried (as much as it seems difficult to get your head round), depending on the size of a coffins, up to 4 would be buried at the same level.

Anne

Kathy · Post by **Kathy** » Thu May 21, 2009 10:30 am

Thanks for the reply WilmaM, a headstone was not erected, so it looks like I will have to send the Cemetery a cheque to get what details they have.

I sent another email to the Cemetery re the number of burials, the following is the reply received.

Yes there are 11 full burials in this grave, however, they are mostly children 4 are still born babies and there is only one adult. Samuel Craig is the proprietor of the lair. The lair was resold to Samuel which could mean that the first person in the lair is not connected to him. This happened all those years ago. It is not uncommon for a lair (grave) to have this many people in it. The practice years ago was to have a clean out. This meant that the coffins were broken up and the bones put to the bottom. Thankfully this is not allowed now.

Currie · Post by **Currie** » Thu May 21, 2009 12:00 pm

When this person enquired about who was in a lair, “the gentleman asked me if I wanted to put anyone else in and he could put the 'pole' in to see if there was any room” http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/t ... 1148420073

And also here, in the list of FAQ’s “If it is an old lair the funeral director would normally check with the cemetery office who may 'probe’ the lair to find out its depth.”
http://www.crosbiematthew.co.uk/index2.php?id=21

I suppose everything down there flattens out eventually.

Alan

Kathy · Post by **Kathy** » Thu May 21, 2009 2:02 pm

Sorry Anne, my reply must have crossed with yours.

It was Greenock Cemetery, Renfrewshire. Lair 431, Section BB.

The owner of the Lair was Samuel Craig, I gather he is the second owner of the Lair, its possible the original owner is also buried in the lair.

Samuel's son Samuel Craig aged 12 years buried 1898, this is the only one I know for sure.

According to the reply from the Cemetery, there is only 1 adult, which may or may not be Samuel Craig Sr interred, so working it out on that basis:

1 Adult
12yo Samuel Craig
4 Still born infants

I would have to assume the remaining 5 are all children.

It's unlikely that there were coffins, more likely mortcloths as I doubt there was much spare cash, and there is no headstone.

Thanks for the web links Currie, most interesting.

Sorry about the morbid subject everyone, I was just a bit shocked to find so many in the one grave.

Kathy

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Thu May 21, 2009 3:06 pm

Hi Kathy

It's unlikely that there were coffins, more likely mortcloths

A mortcloth was a fancy, usually black velvet, drape which was placed over a coffin on the way to burial - it was not buried with the person. Most parishes had several mortcloths of different qualities and sizes to fit both adult and child coffins and these were hired out at appropriate prices with the money going into the poorbox. Some trade guilds also had their own mortcloths for hire to members with the money going into the guild funds to help with the support of ill or incapacited members and/or widows.

There is a brief mention of mortcloths in this article in the TS library
http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4510

I think what you meant was a shroud. These also have an interesting history with regard to what they were allowed to be made from....

Best wishes
Lesley

Kathy · Post by **Kathy** » Thu May 21, 2009 11:09 pm

Thanks Lesley, Shroud is the word I was looking for.

Kathy

apanderson · Post by **apanderson** » Thu May 21, 2009 11:21 pm

The following is from part of an e-mail I received the other day from Glasgow Cemeteries:

"Thank you for your recent correspondence regarding the above. Regrettably given the high volume of genealogical searches being applied for outwith the requirement to effect a funeral, it has become necessary to instigate a standard administration charge, presently set at £61.00.

Whilst we acknowledge genealogical search work is of huge interest and great value to the immediate families involved, it is not as yet an intrinsic part of our day to day provision of a burial and cremation service. This function is not part of our statutory requirements, consequently, the charge has been levied to offset the often lengthy manual trawl of archive records and the tying up of staffing resources. It is anticipated that the ongoing transfer from manual records to an electronic system will make accessibility much easier, quicker and more cost effective."

Anne

Russell · Post by **Russell** » Thu May 21, 2009 11:23 pm

Hi Kathy

If you can find out which church they belonged to it may be that the lair records of the church have been deposited with the National Archive (nas.gov.uk). you would have to trawl through their index once you identified the church to see what documents have been archived.
My local church still have their original record book of Lair ownership and interments. (currently tucked safely under my spare room bed

)

These would give some additional detail probably but that would depend on how well they had been maintained.

Russell