Adopted sister Patricia Norma Williams/Bird

Birth, Marriage, Death

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ken7587
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed May 10, 2023 5:22 am

Adopted sister Patricia Norma Williams/Bird

Post by ken7587 » Fri May 12, 2023 8:14 am

Hi,
I am researching facts regarding the adoption of my late sister. She was born in ]Errol 17/03/1945 as Patricia Normal Williams.

She was relocated to Belfast NI at an extremely early age, where my mother took custody of her. The adoption formality only seems to have been processed some years later.

My father had a farm in Southern Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) but had entered WW2 with the RAF 1939 - 1945. He served in both Scotland and Belfast and in the latter location met and married my mother - they became Arthur Roland Bird and Myrtle Martha (Smith) Bird - 1944.

Patricia was migrated to the farm in Southern Rhodesia in either 1946 or 1947, I do know she made multiple trips up to 1952.

She became Patricia Norma Bird and had a full and happy life as a daughter, sister, mother and grandmother.

So, with her birth certificate being less than 100 years old I am only able to receive a postal copy.

In South Africa, where I live, the postal system has collapsed and is nonexistent. Thus, postal is not an option and I don't need an official copy anyway.

All I am searching for is Patricia's bio mother's and if possible, her father's details. This is purely to provide unanswered questions to mysteries.

My own theory is that my father befriended an airman who was the biological father and unknown circumstances lead to Arthur and Myrtle being the choice for adopting couples, this coupled with their recent marriage and still childless status.

My own research has produced an airman who was killed in action/air accident not far from Errol in 1944. His name is James Henry Williams who was part of the Royal Australian Airforce contingent. There is no evidence to support any connection apart from a common surname.

Is it possible to get some assistance in the form of a scanned copy with as much detail as possible of the birth certificate plus mother's maiden name?

In addition I have been unable to locate any marriage certificates, probably due to the limited info.

I have some credits with Scotlands People and will provide more, as required , if someone, on a visit to Scotlands People could just scan and email the details. I really don't know how this is done.

Thanking you most sincerly,

ken Bird

WilmaM
Posts: 1870
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:46 am
Location: Falkirk area

Re: Adopted sister Patricia Norma Williams/Bird

Post by WilmaM » Fri May 12, 2023 2:25 pm

Welcome to Talking Scot Ken,
I am afraid we probably can't help you as adoption records are only available in person and to the person in question or the next of kin.
see: https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/ ... on-records
Until recently it wasn't even possible to 'see' an indexed entry for an adopted child, but now they seem to be there but with NRH as the birth registration area - these would only show the adoptive parents' details - not any biological details.

However, there is a birth entry for the names you mention in Errol, so you may in fact be in luck.
As there seems to be several different countries involved in her early years - Scotland, Northern Ireland, Southern Rhodesia/Zimbabwe - I suspect any formal adoption proceedings will have failed to inform all the relevant record's departments of the changes in her status!

My daughter may be visiting a records office in the near future, if so I'll ask her to check it out for you.

Which marriage details you are looking for? your parents' or the JH Williams you mention?
If you can be more specific, we will try to assist.
Wilma

arthurk
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:19 pm
Location: West Yorkshire, England

Re: Adopted sister Patricia Norma Williams/Bird

Post by arthurk » Fri May 12, 2023 4:59 pm

ken7587 wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 8:14 am
My own theory is that my father befriended an airman who was the biological father and unknown circumstances lead to Arthur and Myrtle being the choice for adopting couples, this coupled with their recent marriage and still childless status.

My own research has produced an airman who was killed in action/air accident not far from Errol in 1944. His name is James Henry Williams who was part of the Royal Australian Airforce contingent. There is no evidence to support any connection apart from a common surname.
Hi Ken,

As you and Wilma have said, the birth certificate is probably the most important thing you can look into at present. However, there was one more thing that occurred to me - though to some extent I've already discounted it.

I have a similar situation in my own family: RAAF serviceman rumoured to have fathered a child with someone in the UK, but died before it was born. In my case, the RAAF paperwork included the man's will, which named a woman in England as the person to whom any outstanding pay should be paid, and eventually I found a likely birth to her, with a forename that was a bit of a giveaway. So I went looking for James Henry Williams's records to see if there was anything similar. Unfortunately not - there was a will, but it named his parents as equal beneficiaries. However, a brief look at these papers raised two further possible things to look into:

First, the papers I found were in the RAAF accident record, but from a further search with just his surname and service number it looks as though there might also be some kind of personnel record, not yet digitised. This can be requested, though there might be a fee involved. It's probably unlikely, but there may be a chance of something useful appearing there.

Second, one of the documents was a letter from JHW's father enquiring about the whereabouts of certain personal possessions. This said they had possibly been given to him by an aunt in Scotland, so this might offer a possible line of research into the man's family background, eg was one of his parents Scottish? (Their names appear in the will I mentioned.)

Leading on from that, have any of Patricia's descendants considered having their DNA tested? This is now commonly used by adoptees as a way of tracing their birth parents, so if any of JHW's relatives had tested, it would probably enable you to rule them in or out of the frame. And if he wasn't involved, it might lead you to someone who was.
Kennedy (PER > LKS > ARM > England); Campbell, Rutherford, McDonald, Sinclair (all PER)
Wilson, Millar (RFW & LKS); Duncan (LKS); Hastings (KKD) (all > WRY)

ken7587
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed May 10, 2023 5:22 am

Re: Adopted sister Patricia Norma Williams/Bird

Post by ken7587 » Sun May 14, 2023 6:33 pm

WilmaM wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 2:25 pm
Welcome to Talking Scot Ken,
I am afraid we probably can't help you as adoption records are only available in person and to the person in question or the next of kin.
see: https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/ ... on-records
Until recently it wasn't even possible to 'see' an indexed entry for an adopted child, but now they seem to be there but with NRH as the birth registration area - these would only show the adoptive parents' details - not any biological details.

However, there is a birth entry for the names you mention in Errol, so you may in fact be in luck.
As there seems to be several different countries involved in her early years - Scotland, Northern Ireland, Southern Rhodesia/Zimbabwe - I suspect any formal adoption proceedings will have failed to inform all the relevant record's departments of the changes in her status!

My daughter may be visiting a records office in the near future, if so I'll ask her to check it out for you.

Which marriage details you are looking for? your parents' or the JH Williams you mention?
If you can be more specific, we will try to assist.
Hi Wilma,
I don't know if there was ever a marriage - I have absolutely no idea, but would just like to know who her mother was and if possible, who her father was and the circumstances surrounding her adoption. Perhaps at some stage Patricia's daughters and grandchildren might follow up on paying their respects to blood relatives. So, basically any information will be huge. Many thanks.

ken7587
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed May 10, 2023 5:22 am

Re: Adopted sister Patricia Norma Williams/Bird

Post by ken7587 » Sun May 14, 2023 6:38 pm

arthurk wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 4:59 pm
ken7587 wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 8:14 am
My own theory is that my father befriended an airman who was the biological father and unknown circumstances lead to Arthur and Myrtle being the choice for adopting couples, this coupled with their recent marriage and still childless status.

My own research has produced an airman who was killed in action/air accident not far from Errol in 1944. His name is James Henry Williams who was part of the Royal Australian Airforce contingent. There is no evidence to support any connection apart from a common surname.
Hi Ken,

As you and Wilma have said, the birth certificate is probably the most important thing you can look into at present. However, there was one more thing that occurred to me - though to some extent I've already discounted it.

I have a similar situation in my own family: RAAF serviceman rumoured to have fathered a child with someone in the UK, but died before it was born. In my case, the RAAF paperwork included the man's will, which named a woman in England as the person to whom any outstanding pay should be paid, and eventually I found a likely birth to her, with a forename that was a bit of a giveaway. So I went looking for James Henry Williams's records to see if there was anything similar. Unfortunately not - there was a will, but it named his parents as equal beneficiaries. However, a brief look at these papers raised two further possible things to look into:

First, the papers I found were in the RAAF accident record, but from a further search with just his surname and service number it looks as though there might also be some kind of personnel record, not yet digitised. This can be requested, though there might be a fee involved. It's probably unlikely, but there may be a chance of something useful appearing there.

Second, one of the documents was a letter from JHW's father enquiring about the whereabouts of certain personal possessions. This said they had possibly been given to him by an aunt in Scotland, so this might offer a possible line of research into the man's family background, eg was one of his parents Scottish? (Their names appear in the will I mentioned.)

Leading on from that, have any of Patricia's descendants considered having their DNA tested? This is now commonly used by adoptees as a way of tracing their birth parents, so if any of JHW's relatives had tested, it would probably enable you to rule them in or out of the frame. And if he wasn't involved, it might lead you to someone who was.
Many thanks,
really appreciated.

WilmaM
Posts: 1870
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:46 am
Location: Falkirk area

Re: Adopted sister Patricia Norma Williams/Bird

Post by WilmaM » Thu May 18, 2023 12:26 pm

Morning Ken,
my daughter did indeed visit the family History Centre at Alloa and was able to view the birth record you requested.

As it is within our 100 year birth rule, I'll not post the details publicly [ as it's an open forum, some of her birth mother's descendants may not have know of their half sibling/aunt's existence so it may come as a shock to see her name on-line].

Suffice to say, no Father's details are registered, her Mother's Maiden name was Williams and she was a WAAF based at Errol, usual address in Northern Ireland.

She did search for the mother's name in Scottish records, but no further hits came up.
Wilma

ken7587
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed May 10, 2023 5:22 am

Re: Adopted sister Patricia Norma Williams/Bird

Post by ken7587 » Mon Jul 31, 2023 7:12 am

I have been researching RAF Errol, WW2. The RAF there, carried out a secret training mission for Soviet pilots on Albemarle bombers and their period of training was between 1943 until April 1944. Although that April 1944 was a bit early for the conception of Patricia (July - 17 March 1945) I have been looking at the possibility that the adoption was shrouded in secrecy due, somehow, to the sensitivity of that training operation and wondered if the father could have come from the the Soviet Union. There is a disused Fb site dedicated to WAAF's at Errol, so I could get no joy there. My query for which I am stumped, did the Soviets retain any representation at Errol after April 1944. Perhaps you might have some info/knowledge? Thanks again.

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