any ideas anyone

[Justjan]

no James has Jane Stewart m/s harrison as his mothers name , i uploaded it , it does say Harrison

[Justjan]

http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr12 ... ewart1.jpg

james and Mary Ann m/s Martin were this mans parents , his Grandparents were Joseph and Jane
i lost the parents after the last child in 1870 , and the grandparents yet to find anywhere

[killearnan]

Recapping, to make sure I've got this right before I do any more poking around:

Generation 1: Joseph Stewart, a brushmaker, married Jean Harrison, likely before 1834.

Joseph Stewart (deceased by 1863) and Jean Harrison (also deceased by 1863) have a son James Stewart, born about 1834 at {location?}.

Generation 2: James Stewart marries Mary Ann Martin in 1863 at St. James Rd, Glasgow.

James Stewart and his wife have several children by 1870, whose births were registered at {location(s)?}, including a set of twins, one of whom is named George Harrison Stewart.

Generation 3: At some point (1890? article scan small enough it is hard to read on my screen), George Harrison Stewart immigrated to South Africa, where he died in 1950.

You have not found either the older couple [Joseph Stewart & Jean Harrison] or the younger couple [James Stewart & Mary Ann Martin] in any census returns. You also do not have any records for James & Mary Ann after the birth of a child in 1870.

Questions:
1) According to the forms of which church were James and Mary Ann married? If it's not the established church, that may explain the difficulty of pre-1855 records -- and suggest places to look further.
2) What is your source for James Stewart's birth in 1834? Are you working back from his age at marriage?
3) have you looked at immigration/passenger records for James & Mary Ann?

[killearnan]

no James has Jane Stewart m/s harrison as his mothers name , i uploaded it , it does say Harrison

What you posted does say Harrison.... but some other record may use Harris

As I've said before....Our modern assumption tends to be that the written records are (almost) always accurate, but -- off the top of my head:

1) I spent months looking for a woman whose maiden name in her marriage record was Little. Really struggled to place her in the local family with that name Almost a year later, I was looking at a deed for another family and find her listed by her married name. Turns out she belonged with a family concentrated a couple towns away and her father's last name was......... Small

2) My great grandfather Peter [ne McGee] Jamieson evidently stunk at names He listed his mother on his marriage record as Helen Norrie, but she was actually Helen Cassidy; since she also appeared in some records as Eleanor, I'm guessing that her nickname may have been Norrie.

3) My most recent example (figured this one out just recently ....yeah for naming patterns and using family names as middle names!)..... Same great grandfather listed on his father's death record his grandfather as Thomas Jamieson and grandmother as (-----) Hislop. Turns out his grandfather was Robert Jamieson and his grandmother was Janet Hislop, who was listed in 1861 as living with her brother Thomas Hislop. My great-grandfather's uncle Thomas died late enough that my great-grandfather likely had vague memories of him, but his grandfather died almost 30 years before Peter was born.... so the mix-up is plausible.

4) And my current favorite example....found with help here at TS: The wife of the Peter in the previous two examples was Helen (Ellen/Eleanor - she's in various records with all three variations) Cassidy, who was orphaned young. I couldn't find her in the 1841 census. Thought I'd looked at all the girls named Helen/Ellen/Eleanor in the Edinburgh area -- but a wonderful member here found an Ellen Gettany in South Leith, and we're pretty sure it's the same girl.

So it's best to cast a wide net, name wise ;-)

[Justjan]

seems it was the Free church they married at looks like 28th August 1863 , i only have the information on marriage cert ,
all living children except the first Archibald Martin Stewart were sent to poorhouse, Archibald lived with his maternal grandparents , till death of the grandfather , the other children only found Edward who died London 1950 , through a relation who seen i was looking , they wanted to know why i was looking for their Great Uncle ( George ) no reply from them , but from the family tree they have ,its far less than mine , they have no names for grandparents , hoping to get poorhouse records searched for the children , but wont help much with Joseph and Jane , and the witnesses at wedding were a Joseph and George Stewart , so maybe shouldnt assume them to be all brothers ,,
i have never seen James on any census and not sure if they would immigrate leaving the children in poor house ,would they ?

[killearnan]

seems it was the Free church they married at looks like 28th August 1863

This likely explains why you haven't found more records of them, as the pre-1855 records that are easily available on-line are from the established church (with the early Catholic records just beginning to be digitized), not the Free Church or the various other non-conformist bodies. Occasionally, you will find Free Church and other events listed in the OPRs, but it's a long shot. Still worth looking - I found a Catholic ancestor listed in the OPR burials and a couple baptisms from families that were involved in various secessionist churches in the 1810s.

However, you should still find the family in the census returns. For example, you should find James in 1841, 1851, and 1861, and possibly 1871. So, why can't you find him?
1) Joseph & Jean are there but the details are just different enough (location, occupation, names.....) that you aren't recognizing them.
2) Either Joseph or Jean died fairly young, so young James is either
a) living with another family, as a relative other than a son, or as a boarder/etc.; you would likely need more details to narrow him down in this case.
b) living with the surviving parent and maybe a stepparent, so you don't recognize the family. [Especially if Joseph died young and Jean remarried, he might even be listed as a son-in-law, as that was sometimes used to mean what we would call a stepson.]
3) They weren't in Scotland -- if they were in England or overseas, you might find them eventually, but not Ireland But if that is the case, you might well find them in passenger/immigration records, as James was back in Scotland in 1863 to get married.

I'd recommend starting with 1861, since you know where he was in 1863, and seeing if you can find him, then work forward to 1871 (since you say you have a child born in 1870, you should likely either find an 1871 census record or an 1870/71 death for James & Mary Ann).

Also, have you looked for the death records for any siblings for James? Just in case the details are different...... There are five death records that come up if you just enter Stewart as the surname and Harrison as the maiden name. I didn't click through to see if any of them are relevant, but you should if you haven't already -- and then work your way back through any sibling marriages, births, and census records.

There are some extant pre-1855 non-conformist registers, but they pretty much aren't yet digitized, and you generally need to know where the family was to narrow down where to look, which is why the census returns become so important for such families.

hoping to get poorhouse records searched for the children , but wont help much with Joseph and Jane , and the witnesses at wedding were a Joseph and George Stewart , so maybe shouldnt assume them to be all brothers ,,

I haven't dealt with the Glasgow poorhouse records, but other people here have, so they can give you advice on those. But it is possible there will be clues, if not actual details, on Joseph and Jane.

[quote="Justjan"i have never seen James on any census and not sure if they would immigrate leaving the children in poor house ,would they ?[/quote]

Not likely, which is why getting the poorhouse records might help.... the most frequent possibilities are that a widowed parent ended up in the poorhouse ended up with his/her children, or that just orphaned children did -- in either case, that would narrow down when a parent died, to help find those records. Or, if both parents were alive but incapacitated, it would set an earliest date of death and might have other details that lead to further records.

[killearnan]

Two more questions:

1) What occupation did James list in his 1863 marriage record?

2) Have you found Mary Ann Martin on the census in 1861? If so, what details did she give?

[Justjan]

phewwwwwwwwww
well a lot of stuff , no i havent found either on 1861 , and all i am goingon is the marriage cert as its all i have ,
i dont know if James had silblings ,as never found a marriage for his parents ,
Jane was a book folder , i didnt look all the childrens births as far too many ,and he is only down as Dad she signed so no occupation ,
i found she had a sister Martha , and found a few marring in Glasgow one i think married ? Kelly , i did find a Mary Anne living with a Sister later , havent found a death for either with the parents , and as there is 3 couples with same names a lot to pay for when your maybe getting the wrong Family , i know Mary Ann was born in Ireland ,as was her sister and parents , but these arent the ones i want to find ,so dont really want to waste time looking , was in SP or FHC you got the 5 deaths as i cant get any ,
but can try again , seems a lot of time searching and getting to stage think this one has to be him , but i cant get anything to tie him in , so not sure how you can assume its the right one
not sure what to try next
thanks for the help

[nelmit]

Two more questions:

1) What occupation did James list in his 1863 marriage record?

2) Have you found Mary Ann Martin on the census in 1861? If so, what details did she give?

See viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14256&p=113074&hili ... in#p113074

Regards,
Annette

[killearnan]

See viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14256&p=113074&hili ... in#p113074

Thanks! Missed that one back in the midst of the Jewish holidays.....went through some TS withdrawal

I'll look there and see if I have any other ideas

{Edited... ugh for typos!}