Army 'dog tag' or what?

[nelmit]

The ‘dog tags,’ with the string ‘necklace’ shown in the linked picture are the same as mine.
I would like for the numbers on the ‘dog tags’ and on John McEwan’s grave to be the same. This would settle the matter for me but, his death cert. obtained from GRO also gives the same army number as the CWGC.

Is it a mistake or did it belong to another family member. John's father was also called John and a brother called James.

I think I’ll have to do a wee bit more digging.

Haven't a clue about the army or anything to do with it but finding this thread interesting.

So............ on Nurse Brittain's tag her 'unit' is given as V E D - what is on the dog tag you have for J Mcewan?

A browse around the internet would suggest that whoever he/she was survived as one tag should have been left on the person in the case of injury or death.

Regards,
Annette

[maddymoss]

That's my problem, too - I haven't a clue about the army. Both tags read McEwan J 04 RC 2828171. I knew John McEwan was in the Seaforth Highlanders. I also know he was part of the British Expeditionary Force in France/Belgium and 'Died of Wounds'.

Going on from one of the links kindly given I discovered the 2nd and 4th Battalions of the Seaforth Highlanders constituted the 51st Infantry Division of the BEF.

I know it's a wild guess but would 04 mean 4th Battalion? I also read about the removal of the round disc in the event of death. The more I find out the more confusing it seems to become.

[Currie]

The Commonwealth War Graves site has John McEwan in the 6th Bn. of the Seaforth Highlanders. Buried in Bedford House Cemetery, Belgium. Died between 23rd May and 31st May, 1940. That suggests that he was found dead, killed in action, rather than died of wounds. I think that ‘died of wounds’ implies that someone was brought alive to a medical facility and died there, in which case there would be no doubt about the date of death.

I had a look around trying to figure out what the 04 stood for but didn’t get very far. You’ll see the 04 cropping up no less than three times on this page about Australian WW2 tags. http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-uni ... _tags2.htm

On the ones for Greer “Both are impressed in obverse 'NX70937 J.K. GREER C.E.' and in the reverse 'O 4'.” She’s Sister J. K. Greer, another nurse, 2/10 Australian General Hospital, Captain, born 1913, enlisted 1940, taken prisoner by the Japanese. She also had numbers N104881 & NX70517.

George Henry Clifton Muirhead, VX104212, Captain, Australian Army Service Corps, born 1908, enlisted 1942. His is stamped 04. He had another number V48865.

Austin Eagar, NX108379, Gunner, Royal Australian Artillery, born 1920, enlisted 1942. He has a previous set of tags “EAGAR / A / CE / N104731, and on the reverse 04” http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/REL25240.002

I can’t find any explanation as to what the 04 stands for. It’s probably something very obvious. Gunner Eagar had another set of tags probably because he had been given a new number. The other two mentioned also had old numbers probably with a corresponding tag.

There must be the chance that the Seaforth Highlanders have been given new numbers and that 2828171 is just an old number on a redundant tag, and he’s given it away.

I have a list of all the Seaforth Highlanders buried in Bedford House. If you want it, Maddymoss, I’ll post it here.

All the best,
Alan

[nelmit]

While browsing trying to find out more I have seen that dog tags (from all countries) have the owner's blood group stamped on them. In J McEwan's case I could see that the O may be relevent but when you look at Vera's that doesn't make sense.

My first thoughts were that 04 stood for the year the dog tags were issued (ie the year he joined the service) but again in Vera's case that wouldn't make sense.

Have you tried contacting the National Archives and quoting the service number?

Regards,
Annette

[Currie]

I was just thinking that we are seeing a lot of these compressed fibre dog tags with 04 on them. If that is only meant to represent the number 4 then nobody is likely to be punching 04 by hand using two separate punches. But a two number punching machine would need something to fill the other space and would punch 04

The fellow on the Great War Forum thread is talking about a reversed 4 and you can only get that by punching a 4 on the back, although you’d think he could tell if that was the case or not. Perhaps the number there is only 6 numbers and the supposed 4 isn’t part of it.

Maybe they all have a 4 on them, or perhaps in that particular series, and the ones made at particular places have 04 depending on the punching part of the manufacturing equipment and how deeply they are punched may vary greatly. Not many things get made without some sort of identifying mark.

Depending on who punches the soldiers details on later the 4 or 04 could be on the front or the back.

Guessing wildly and probably punch-drunk,
Alan

[Hibee]

Here is a link to what currently appears on a UK dog tag.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_tag_(m ... ed_Kingdom

My guess is the 04 is a Blood Group (O, A, AB, etc, might get mixed up with name initials or religious affiliation).

Are numbers issued sequentially? If so, I know that 23938446 was only reached in the early 1960s, so a WWII number was more likely to be 7 digits.

Hibee

[nelmit]

Re Army Service Numbers -

http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/mm/arm ... umbers.htm

So definitely Seaforth Highlanders.

[maddymoss]

The replies and suggestions are very welcome.

Currie,
I’ve conducted quite a bit of research on this branch of my family, and to my knowledge, there has been no connection with Australia. Where did you find the information that John McEwan was in the 6th Battalion? Could you post it here, please? I’ve been unable to find it, thanks.

Nelmit,
According to the National Archives WW2 Service Records are held at the Ministry of Defence.

The 04 is a niggle that won't go away.

More digging required, I think.

[Currie]

Do you believe military experts:

Such as the fellow on the Great War Forum link I posted “You don't usually get blood group on British tags until the 1960's.”

and “The disc is also pre 70's as it does not have Blood Group or religion on it which became standard in the late 60's” http://www.arrse.co.uk/military-history ... discs.html

Or the blood experts:

“The Australian army personnel in WW2 had blood groups on one of their two dog tags (from memory, the fibre one - the other was aluminium & this carried my army No). I don't know about the British army, but would be surprised if Australia wasn't following British practice. My AIF blood group was O4. I presume that meant O+ as I haven't heard the term used elsewhere”. http://searches2.rootsweb.com/th/read/W ... 1118041901

“Thanks for your comments about blood groups being on dog tags in the AIF in WW2. The first web site below shows a WW2 dog tag as used by the AIF with your blood group, O 4 on it. But I don't think that the Rhesus blood group was included on dog tags in WW2 because Sir Ronald Fisher at Cambridge University didn't invent his nomenclature for the Rhesus blood group system until 1944. You can see in the later dog tags used by the AIF that by the time of the Viet Nam conflict, the blood group on the dog tag included both the ABO group and the Rhesus blood group of the soldier wearing it, viz. O Pos.

Briefly, the evolution of these changes in naming blood groups was due to the fact that pioneer workers in blood group research in Europe and in America had invented different and potentially confusing naming systems.

For example, in Europe the groups were named in order of their discovery while in America, Moss in 1910, named the ABO blood groups: IV, III, II and I in order of their frequency of occurrence in the general population. ie in America , blood group O was called blood group IV. This was the reverse of the European naming system, so to avoid confusion, in 1937 at an international event in Paris the current ABO system was universally adopted.

For these reasons, I think that for the Allied Armies in WW2, a blood group defined as O 4 on a dog tag would be understood by an American as well as by a Brit. or an Aussie medic to refer to the ABO blood group of the wearer. Maybe someone else can either confirm or refute this. http://searches2.rootsweb.com/th/read/W ... 1118060783

Here’s the info from the CWGC site.

Casualty Details
Name: McEWAN, JOHN
Initials: J
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Seaforth Highlanders
Unit Text: 6th Bn.
Age: 20
Date of Death: between 23/05/1940 and 31/05/1940
Service No: 2823481
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Enclosure No.6 V. B. 2.
Cemetery: Bedford House Cemetery
http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_det ... ty=2775351

Alan

[Currie]

In 1940, the 6th Battalion was sent to France as part of the BEF. The Battalion was involved in the Blitzkrieg of May 1940, escaping through Dunkirk on the 1st of June after suffering significant losses. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seaforth_Highlanders

Here’s a list of the Seaforth Highlanders buried in Bedford House Cemetery. Extracted from this site http://www.inmemories.com/Cemeteries/bedfordhouse2.htm

ADAMS DAVID BROWN
Private 2821684 Seaforth Highlanders 27/05/1940 Age: 21 Encl. No.6 V. A. 10.
ARMITAGE EDWARD
Private 7894779 Seaforth Highlanders 23/05/1940 Age: 19 Encl. No.6 V. A. 33.
BARBOUR WILLIAM
Private 2817712 Seaforth Highlanders 26/05/1940 Age: 28 Encl. No.6 V. B. 7.
BARRETT PATRICK
Private 3243174 Seaforth Highlanders 27/05/1940 Age: 27 Encl. No.6 V. A. 3.
BEATON JAMES REID
Private 2821818 Seaforth Highlanders 30/05/1940 Age: 21 Encl. No.6 V. B. 12.
BREMNER DAVID MILLER
Private 2821802 Seaforth Highlanders 28/05/1940 Age: 20 Encl. No.6 V. A. 7.
CAMPBELL JOSEPH
Private 4537585 Seaforth Highlanders 26/05/1940 Age: 19 Encl. No.6 V. B. 8.
CLERIHEW JOHN
Lance Corporal 2815577 Seaforth Highlanders 27/05/1940 Age: 34 Encl. No.6 V. A. 32.
CRAIG LAWRENCE
Private 3247635 Seaforth Highlanders 10/05/1940 Age: 19 Encl. No.6 V. A. 31.
CRICHTON JOHN
Private 3234126 Seaforth Highlanders 27/05/1940 Age: 38 Encl. No.6 V. A. 9.
DAVIDSON RODERICK MANSON
Private 2822909 Seaforth Highlanders 25/05/1940 Age: 24 Encl. No.6 V. B. 14.
EDWARDS BENJAMIN JOHN
Private 3247411 Seaforth Highlanders 27/05/1940 Age: 24 Encl. No.6 V. A. 1.
FAULKNER ERNEST OLIVER
Private 2822604 Seaforth Highlanders 27/05/1940 Age: 25 Encl. No.6 V. B. 6.
FLECK JAMES SIM
Private 3247667 Seaforth Highlanders 24/05/1940 Age: 19 Encl. No.6 V. A. 15.
GORDON ROBERT DIGHTON
Second Lieutenant 118000 Seaforth Highlanders 27/05/1940 Age: 21 Encl. No.6 V. A. 26.
GORMAN OWEN MARTIN
Private 2823446 Seaforth Highlanders 27/05/1940 Age: 20 Encl. No.6 V. A. 4.
GREEN HARRY
Private 2821611 Seaforth Highlanders 10/05/1940 Age: 20 Encl. No.6 V. A. 21.
HONEYMAN WILLIAM ANDERSON
Corporal 3239268 Seaforth Highlanders 27/05/1940 Age: 35 Encl. No.6 V. A. 24.
INNES JAMES
Private 2820976 Seaforth Highlanders 25/05/1940 Age: 19 Encl. No.6 V. B. 15.
LAING ALEXANDER
Private 2820514 Seaforth Highlanders 30/05/1940 Age: 21 Encl. No.6 V. B. 4.
LAING JOHN MACKINTOSH
Private 2820784 Seaforth Highlanders 30/05/1940 Age: 26 Encl. No.6 V. B. 9.
MARSHALL ROBERT
Private 2813354 Seaforth Highlanders 27/05/1940 Age: 36 Encl. No.6 V. A. 17.
MARSHALL THOMAS
Private 2816790 Seaforth Highlanders 30/05/1940 Age: 29 Encl. No.6 V. B. 10.
McCAMLEY PATRICK
Private 3243814 Seaforth Highlanders 27/05/1940 Age: 28 Encl. No.6 V. A. 19.
McDONALD RODERICK
Corporal 2816551 Seaforth Highlanders 10/05/1940 Age: 33 Encl. No.6 V. A. 6.
McEWAN JOHN
Private 2823481 Seaforth Highlanders 23/05/1940 Age: 20 Encl. No.6 V. B. 2.
McINTYRE CAMPBELL
Private 2821958 Seaforth Highlanders 14/05/1940 Age: 26 Encl. No.6 V. B. 5.
McMANUS JOHN
Private 2823117 Seaforth Highlanders 26/05/1940 Age: 21 Encl. No.6 V. C. 11.
McRITCHIE COLIN JAMES
Private 2822516 Seaforth Highlanders 27/05/1940 Age: 21 Encl. No.6 V. A. 18.
MILNE RICHARD STUART
Second Lieutenant 86508 Seaforth Highlanders 27/05/1940 Age: 22 Encl. No.6 V. A. 5.
MORRISON SIMON
Lance Corporal 2818789 Seaforth Highlanders 24/05/1940 Age: 24 Encl. No.6 V. B. 21.
NOBLE DOUGLAS ANDERSON
Private 3241854 Seaforth Highlanders 21/05/1940 Encl. No.6 V. A. 11.
PROCTOR WILLIE
Private 2820626 Seaforth Highlanders 28/05/1940 Age: 23 Encl. No.6 V. A. 23.
RAMSAY IAN MALCOLM
Second Lieutenant 99730 Seaforth Highlanders 27/05/1940 Age: 24 Encl. No.6 V. A. 12.
ROSS DAVID
Captain 64205 Seaforth Highlanders 27/05/1940 Age: 34 Encl. No.6 V. B. 1
SANDERSON ALASTAIR FLETCHER
Captain 93621 Seaforth Highlanders 27/05/1940 Age: 47 Encl. No.6 V. C. 7.
SCOTT GEORGE
Private 2823471 Seaforth Highlanders 27/05/1940 Age: 21 Encl. No.6 V. B. 19.
SIMPSON DONALD JOHN
Private 2822527 Seaforth Highlanders 27/05/1940 Age: 24 Encl. No.6 V. A 14.
SUTHERLAND JOHN
Private 2823591 Seaforth Highlanders 26/05/1940 Age: 26 Encl. No.6 V. A. 20.
SUTHERLAND NORMAN
Serjeant 2818334 Seaforth Highlanders 26/05/1940 Age: 27 Encl. No.6 V. A. 13.
SUTHERLAND ROBERT THOMAS
Private 2820628 Seaforth Highlanders 27/05/1940 Encl. No.6 V. A. 16.
THOMSON EDWARD
Private 2821649 Seaforth Highlanders 27/05/1940 Age: 22 Encl. No.6 V. A. 8.
TURNER MICHAEL
Lance Corporal 2875815 Seaforth Highlanders 27/05/1940 Age: 26 Encl. No.6 V. A. 2.
WAUGH SAMUEL
Private 3240116 Seaforth Highlanders 28/05/1940 Age: 23 Encl. No.6 V. B. 16.
WILSON ALEXANDER GEORGE
Serjeant 2811223 Seaforth Highlanders 27/05/1940 Age: 37 Encl. No.6 V. A. 22.
YOUNG CHARLES ALASTAIR
Lieutenant 66573 Seaforth Highlanders 27/05/1940 Age: 22 Encl. No.6 V. A. 25.

Hope that’s useful,
Alan