Death and divorce
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carolineasb
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Re: Death and divorce
Can I ask how you know the Divorce was granted? Have you seen the actual Extract Decree of Divorce? Is the marriage entry marked with the Divorce?
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Ina
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Re: Death and divorce
Hi Carolyn, Yes I saw it many years ago at New Register House, but at that time I didn't realize that the fellow was dead. There was an RCE on the marriage record. I've just sent away for a copy of the marriage record, and I've asked if they could get me a copy of the divorce records. Here is the reply from SP
Thank you for contacting http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
When a decree of divorce was granted by the Court of Sessions, it was formerly the practise to annotate the marriage entry to reflect that a divorce had taken place.
This was discontinued on May 1st 1984. Where a divorce was notified to the Register General on or after that date, there will be no corresponding annotation on the marriage entry or on any extract of the entry. A separate register of divorces was set up from 1st May 1984 from where extracts are available.
An extract of divorce granted in Scotland prior to May 1st 1984 is obtainable from the Court of Session, Parliament House, 1 Parliament Square, Edinburgh EH1 1RF
If there is an RCE on the record, and as you have ordered the extract, you sometimes find that the RCE is on the reverse of the image or attached in another way.
I'm hoping when the marriage record arrives that the RCE will be included.
Regards,
Ina
Thank you for contacting http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
When a decree of divorce was granted by the Court of Sessions, it was formerly the practise to annotate the marriage entry to reflect that a divorce had taken place.
This was discontinued on May 1st 1984. Where a divorce was notified to the Register General on or after that date, there will be no corresponding annotation on the marriage entry or on any extract of the entry. A separate register of divorces was set up from 1st May 1984 from where extracts are available.
An extract of divorce granted in Scotland prior to May 1st 1984 is obtainable from the Court of Session, Parliament House, 1 Parliament Square, Edinburgh EH1 1RF
If there is an RCE on the record, and as you have ordered the extract, you sometimes find that the RCE is on the reverse of the image or attached in another way.
I'm hoping when the marriage record arrives that the RCE will be included.
Regards,
Ina
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carolineasb
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Re: Death and divorce
Interesting that they say that the marriage entry is not annotated as that is not my understanding from previous discussions with GRO. It would seem logical that they are annotated, just as adoptions and declarators of parentage, whether they are also put in another Register or not.
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AnneM
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Re: Death and divorce
Hi Ina
This just does not compute! Someone who died in 1975 could not be the pursuer in a divorce in Scotland in 1976. He might just possibly have been a defender if his wife did not know where he was and divorced him in his absence without realising he had died but to take a divorce forward he would have to be alive. The wife said she did not know she was divorced so she could not have been the pursuer. He would have to give instructions to his lawyer, not to mention pay him/her. There was no waiting period after the evidence was taken... divorce would be granted immediately. As soon as someone is dead the marriage is at an end so there is no need for a divorce. As said previously there was no no fault divorce at that stage so the pursuer would have to prove some kind of marital offence.
This is very confusing. Unless I am missing something but I can't think what that is.
Anne
This just does not compute! Someone who died in 1975 could not be the pursuer in a divorce in Scotland in 1976. He might just possibly have been a defender if his wife did not know where he was and divorced him in his absence without realising he had died but to take a divorce forward he would have to be alive. The wife said she did not know she was divorced so she could not have been the pursuer. He would have to give instructions to his lawyer, not to mention pay him/her. There was no waiting period after the evidence was taken... divorce would be granted immediately. As soon as someone is dead the marriage is at an end so there is no need for a divorce. As said previously there was no no fault divorce at that stage so the pursuer would have to prove some kind of marital offence.
This is very confusing. Unless I am missing something but I can't think what that is.
Anne
Anne
Researching M(a)cKenzie, McCammond, McLachlan, Kerr, Assur, Renton, Redpath, Ferguson, Shedden, Also Oswald, Le/assels/Lascelles, Bonning just for starters
Researching M(a)cKenzie, McCammond, McLachlan, Kerr, Assur, Renton, Redpath, Ferguson, Shedden, Also Oswald, Le/assels/Lascelles, Bonning just for starters
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carolineasb
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Re: Death and divorce
I agree, Anne!
Only thing I can think of is that the Action for Divorce started say in 1974 or even just before the person in question passed in 1975. Perhaps evidence was led actually in Court to prove the Divorce and perhaps a judgment then had to be written which took longer than normal and the Court was perhaps not informed of the passing of the Pursuer in the intervening period and before the Judgment was issued and extracted?
Ina, are you sure that the names and addresses of the parties on the Extract Decree of Divorce were as you thought they should be? Was the date of marriage on the Extract as per your research (and therefor parents match for your family?)?
Caroline
Only thing I can think of is that the Action for Divorce started say in 1974 or even just before the person in question passed in 1975. Perhaps evidence was led actually in Court to prove the Divorce and perhaps a judgment then had to be written which took longer than normal and the Court was perhaps not informed of the passing of the Pursuer in the intervening period and before the Judgment was issued and extracted?
Ina, are you sure that the names and addresses of the parties on the Extract Decree of Divorce were as you thought they should be? Was the date of marriage on the Extract as per your research (and therefor parents match for your family?)?
Caroline
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Ina
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Re: Death and divorce
Hi Caroline,
Yes names and dates are exact. I just received their actual marriage and divorce record from SP. Marriage took place January 1965 and divorce November 3, 1976, which was 1 year and nine months after the husbands death. I'm assuming that since he was in America that the Scottish courts didn't check on him.........and apparently his wife didn't know he was dead either
I have his death record, and I know for sure it's him, same date of birth, same parents including both of their middle names, a US navy man. He died in the Naval Hospital in Florida. I find it all very interesting as his death certificate was signed by his sister and was noted that he was divorced. I'm assuming that was from his first marriage. The divorce from his first marriage was in November of 1964. I'm wondering now if his family didn't know he had been married in Scotland..........wonder who got all his navy death benefits. Sadly the American death records don't say the cause of death, this man was only 40 year old.
Ina
Yes names and dates are exact. I just received their actual marriage and divorce record from SP. Marriage took place January 1965 and divorce November 3, 1976, which was 1 year and nine months after the husbands death. I'm assuming that since he was in America that the Scottish courts didn't check on him.........and apparently his wife didn't know he was dead either
I have his death record, and I know for sure it's him, same date of birth, same parents including both of their middle names, a US navy man. He died in the Naval Hospital in Florida. I find it all very interesting as his death certificate was signed by his sister and was noted that he was divorced. I'm assuming that was from his first marriage. The divorce from his first marriage was in November of 1964. I'm wondering now if his family didn't know he had been married in Scotland..........wonder who got all his navy death benefits. Sadly the American death records don't say the cause of death, this man was only 40 year old.
Ina
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carolineasb
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Re: Death and divorce
Hi Ina,
It's all very strange but the only thing I can think of is my scenario where evidence was led in Court but a judgment for some reason took a long time to be issued, although this seems exceptionally long!
The Courts would not check up on parties. It is a matter for parties or their Agents to keep the Court informed of any change whether that be name, address, or in this case of the passing of one of the parties. Of course, in this case, there would be the added link in the chain of Counsel (Advocate or Queen's Counsel) as in those days only Counsel had right of audience at the Court of Session. So It looks like there was a breakdown in communication somewhere between the US and Scotland.
And now.........opening another can of worms...........if he was still married at the time of his death, would this all have had a bearing on inheritance????
Caroline
It's all very strange but the only thing I can think of is my scenario where evidence was led in Court but a judgment for some reason took a long time to be issued, although this seems exceptionally long!
The Courts would not check up on parties. It is a matter for parties or their Agents to keep the Court informed of any change whether that be name, address, or in this case of the passing of one of the parties. Of course, in this case, there would be the added link in the chain of Counsel (Advocate or Queen's Counsel) as in those days only Counsel had right of audience at the Court of Session. So It looks like there was a breakdown in communication somewhere between the US and Scotland.
And now.........opening another can of worms...........if he was still married at the time of his death, would this all have had a bearing on inheritance????
Caroline
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Ina
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Re: Death and divorce
I've wondered the same Caroline. I'm assuming his death benefits went to the two children from his first marriage. Meanwhile his two children in Scotland didn't even know their father was deceased.carolineasb wrote:Hi Ina,
And now.........opening another can of worms...........if he was still married at the time of his death, would this all have had a bearing on inheritance????
Caroline
Strange the things we discover while doing genealogy research. I've had two strange discoveries. First someone divorces a dead person........and I also discovered that I have a Saint in my family. My great great grandmother's sister named her son Saint Francis ******
Ina
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AnneM
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Re: Death and divorce
Someone divorcing a dead person I can understand. That is by no means out of the question. The scenario in that case would be that the wife would have divorced the husband, presumably for desertion though if she left the States she would have had difficulty doing that as a wife was supposed to stay where her husband was. She would not know where he was and he would have been cited on the walls of court etc. What I still struggle with is the dead person actually doing the divorcing. I was involved with a lot of undefended divorces in the late 1970s....after the 1976 Act came in and once affidavit evidence was allowed and I can't envisage any circumstances in which we could have been representing a dead client. I also knew few cases that lasted that long. Where evidence was led in court usually the judgement was given on the day. Presumably there were no children under 16 and no-one was seeking financial provision.
Where who got his money is concerned that is likely to have been governed by the law of the State in the US where he lived at the time of his death (unless he owned a house or land in Scotland) and also probably the knowledge that his American family had of the Scottish marriage which may well have been nil. It's also possible he had nothing to leave except possibly some pension rights.
Anne
Where who got his money is concerned that is likely to have been governed by the law of the State in the US where he lived at the time of his death (unless he owned a house or land in Scotland) and also probably the knowledge that his American family had of the Scottish marriage which may well have been nil. It's also possible he had nothing to leave except possibly some pension rights.
Anne
Anne
Researching M(a)cKenzie, McCammond, McLachlan, Kerr, Assur, Renton, Redpath, Ferguson, Shedden, Also Oswald, Le/assels/Lascelles, Bonning just for starters
Researching M(a)cKenzie, McCammond, McLachlan, Kerr, Assur, Renton, Redpath, Ferguson, Shedden, Also Oswald, Le/assels/Lascelles, Bonning just for starters
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carolineasb
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Re: Death and divorce
Hi again,
Children in Scotland may have been under 16 as marriage was 1965 and death 1975. I'm wondering if that's what took the time? But then hold-ups are often waiting for reports and any reporters would have wanted to speak to the Pursuer?? If only we could look at the Process to see what happened! Ina, you may have already mentioned this but can I check that the actual Date of DECREE was the date in 1976? Not just the Date of EXTRACT in 1976? It is just possible that there could be a big gap between the date of Decree and the date of Extract.
If he had property in Scotland, but none in the US, he may have counted himself as domiciled in Scotland? If he passed intestate, which you would think, then everything should have gone to his second wife as they were still married under Scots Law, I think, and nothing to children unless the sum went over a certain amount that they could claim.
What a tangled web we weave!!
Ina, I also have strange things going on in my Mum's paternal family. Two of her Great Uncles were twins and they married two sisters. One of these Great Uncles had 3 children with his wife and then disappeared. She went on to have several children with a different man but I don't think remarried as I think she knew that hubby was still alive. I found said Great Uncle in British Columbia in Canada having changed his surname to his Mother's possible maiden surname (a common name) and was supposedly married to a different woman who it appears had also changed her name! I know it was him as exact same date of birth and his obituary in the newspaper mentioned his son back in Glasgow with the correct surname (a relatively uncommon name)! His twin was thrown out of the army for misconduct in the First World War and when he passed, his widow married a chap with the same name as my husband! You just couldn't write it!
Caroline
Children in Scotland may have been under 16 as marriage was 1965 and death 1975. I'm wondering if that's what took the time? But then hold-ups are often waiting for reports and any reporters would have wanted to speak to the Pursuer?? If only we could look at the Process to see what happened! Ina, you may have already mentioned this but can I check that the actual Date of DECREE was the date in 1976? Not just the Date of EXTRACT in 1976? It is just possible that there could be a big gap between the date of Decree and the date of Extract.
If he had property in Scotland, but none in the US, he may have counted himself as domiciled in Scotland? If he passed intestate, which you would think, then everything should have gone to his second wife as they were still married under Scots Law, I think, and nothing to children unless the sum went over a certain amount that they could claim.
What a tangled web we weave!!
Ina, I also have strange things going on in my Mum's paternal family. Two of her Great Uncles were twins and they married two sisters. One of these Great Uncles had 3 children with his wife and then disappeared. She went on to have several children with a different man but I don't think remarried as I think she knew that hubby was still alive. I found said Great Uncle in British Columbia in Canada having changed his surname to his Mother's possible maiden surname (a common name) and was supposedly married to a different woman who it appears had also changed her name! I know it was him as exact same date of birth and his obituary in the newspaper mentioned his son back in Glasgow with the correct surname (a relatively uncommon name)! His twin was thrown out of the army for misconduct in the First World War and when he passed, his widow married a chap with the same name as my husband! You just couldn't write it!
Caroline