Harder than Cryptic Crosswords

[innjess]

I suppose I am addicted to Cryptic Crosswords, Sudoku and Codewords, but I confess I have rarely been as bewildered as I am over some Family Tree research!
My Great Grandfather, William Murray Hutchison was christened on 25 April 1841 (OPR Births 466/0060 0362) and married Janet Innes on 16 April 1863 (Statutory Marriages 685/03 0064. On the Marriage Certificate his mother is stated to be "Euphemia Skinner deceased M(aiden) S(urname) Skinner. However, Euphemia Skinner(s) married James Hutchison (William Murray's father) on 5 December 1830 (OPR Banns & Marriages. GROS Data 420/0050 0053). This was his first wife. James Hutchison's second wife was Helen Todd (OPR Banns and Marriages. GROS Data 467/0030 0178) which took place 21 May 1840. There is a huge inconsistency as to who his real mother was - I would bet on Helen Todd. To add to confusion, a Salvo Lamb Hutchison was born to James and Euphemia on 29 August 1845, five years after James' marriage to Helen Todd! And to really throw me, I have a carbon copy of a typed letter dated 12 January 1914 from William Murray to his Grandson, also William Murray (a WW1 casualty), in which he states that "I was the second youngest of 16"! Totally at odds with the IGI Record of James Hutchison and Helen Todd's 7 children (although this only goes to 1855), where William (Murray) is listed as the oldest of these 7 children.
Help, please, or I will have to sign up to some more cryptic crosswords, so I can exercise my grey matter rather less than I am doing with matters genealogical!
totally.
Innes Hutchison

[LesleyB]

Hi Innes
Going from what you have said, my thoughts would first be to check that there are not two couples of the same or similar names in the same area - that 1845 birth would lead me to be checking that out.

Also, when William Murray says in the letter to his Grandson, also William Murray "I was the second youngest of 16" could he be including half-siblings (the children of Janet Innes as well as Helen Todd?

Who was the death informant to William Murray Hutchison?
Do you have eny evidence (e.g. MI, OPR death entry, mortcloth entry) of Euphemia Skinner's demise?

Best wishes
Lesley

[innjess]

Hello Lesley,
Before I try and answer, maybe you could clear up some of the terms you used?
eg "Death informant to" MI, and Mortcloth entry".
Once I get the explanations, I feel I can do some additional research, and then reply in a more reasoned manner.
Thanks
innjess

[LesleyB]

Hi Innjess

Before I try and answer, maybe you could clear up some of the terms you used?
eg "Death informant to" MI, and Mortcloth entry".

With any post-1855 death in Scotland, someone had to go to register the death with the registrar. This person is the "death informant" - their name should appear in column 7 of the death entry (downloaded from SP). Obviously, it can be very important to ascertain who the death informant was: if it is a sibling or other very close family member, it is more likely that they might be able to name correctly the parents of the deceased (though not always!!) If it is someone much younger, e.g. a grandchild of the deceased or someone who is not family as often happens if a person died in hospital for example, their knowledge of who the deceased's parents were can be scanty or non-existent.

For info on MIs morthcloths & etc, there are articles in the Talking Scot Library.
MIs - http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4556
Mortcloths - http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4510

Best wishes
Lesley

[Currie]

Hello Innjess,

Looks like James Hutchison and Helen Todd died 1855 or later. Do you have their death certificates and would the dates and info on those preclude the possibility of a third marriage being added to the mix. Have you been able to find James and his family or families on the census of 1841, 1851 and subsequently.

Salvo was born Edinburgh Parish 1845, seems to have married Jemima there in 1868 and he’s still there between 1871 and 1901 so he survived childhood and the 1851 etc census should establish his parentage and remove any confusion.

Maybe this is the family that brought forth Salvo.
FreeCen 1841, St Cuthbert’s Edinburgh
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
HUTCHISON James M 43 Porter Outside Census County (1841)
HUTCHISON Euphemy F 30 Outside Census County (1841)
HUTCHISON James M 15 Outside Census County (1841)
HUTCHISON Elisabeth F 9 Outside Census County (1841)
HUTCHISON Euphemy F 6 Midlothian
HUTCHISON Agnus F 4 Midlothian
HUTCHISON Esilbell F 2 Midlothian

I don’t know where this family is in 1851 or 1861 or where Salvo is either in those years and I’m not sure I can find anything for them, the marriage or births, on the IGI either. Maybe there’s a problem with the name.

As Lesley was saying, if there was a death of one wife and the rapid acquisition of another and the merging of two, if Helen Todd was previously married, families and the birth of more it would be easy for parentage to get confused depending on what they were told and how long the original parents were around before someone else took over the role. Maybe second youngest was a slip of the pen and he was second eldest.

Hope that’s useful,
Alan

[nelmit]

Here is the family Alan found in 1851 -

James Hutchison
Age: 58
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1793
Relationship: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Cupar, Fifeshire
Parish Number: 685/1
Civil Parish: Edinburgh New North
County: Midlothian
Address: Borthwicks Close
Occupation: Gourk Of Law Tarlemont House Porter
ED: 6
Page: 11 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 35
Line: 1
Roll: CSSCT1851_178
Household Members: Name Age
Euphemia Hutchison 15
Isabella Hutchison 10
James Hutchison 58
Jannett Hutchison 26
Selva Hutchison 5

I think William was in hospital. He's the only one I see around the right age.

So you are definitely looking at the wrong family. All James Hutchison and Helen Todd's children were born in Clackmannan.
Your William was born in Edinburgh.

It looks like Euphemia may have been his second wife as his daughter Janet was born in Fife around 1825.

Regards,
Annette

[nelmit]

Here is Janet in 1841 (with James's brother???) note where he works-

Piece: SCT1841/685 Place: Edinburgh -Midlothian Enumeration District: 8
Civil Parish: Edinburgh Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: New North
Folio: 130 Page: 1
Address: 204- High Street

Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
HUTCHISON Robert M 45 Supt Of Court Buildings Outside Census County (1841)
HUTCHISON Helen F 35 Outside Census County (1841)
HUTCHISON Christina F 17 Midlothian
HUTCHISON George M 14 Draper Apprentice Midlothian
HUTCHISON Helen F 12 Midlothian
HUTCHISON Jessie F 10 Midlothian
HUTCHISON John M 8 Midlothian
HUTCHISON Robert M 6 Midlothian
HUTCHISON January F 4 Midlothian
HUTCHISON William M 1 Midlothian
HUTCHISON Janet F 18 Temporary Visitor Outside Census County (1841)

Regards,
Annette

[AndrewP]

Here is James in 1851 -

James Hutchison
Age: 58
...
Occupation: Gourk Of Law Tarlemont House Porter
...
Selva Hutchison 5

ScotlandsPeople has him indexed as HATCHISON to add to the challenge. In fairness, it does look like Hatchison on the image. The a is probaly a u with the cross-bar of the t across the top of it.

The occupation was the part that intrigued me. He was a Porter in the Court of Law, Parliament House. It looks like he was originally listed as a porter labourer, but labourer is scored through.

(In my opinion) Selva is written as Salvo upon close inspection of the image. SP's index has him as JOHN.

All the best,

AndrewP

[nelmit]

(In my opinion) Selva is written as Salvo upon close inspection of the image. SP's index has him as JOHN.

All the best,

AndrewP

mmmm.... Maybe they got somebody in from Ancestry to transcribe.

[Currie]

Hello All,

Recently Innjess posted another question part of which read:
“I have the above ("Mar's Entry") in the Birth record of 25/04/1841 of my Great Grandfather, William Murray Hutchison”

The following Data (found and sent to me during the night by a very reliable resident census expert) no doubt is for the family of the above individual. In 1841 they were at Mar’s Entry.

JAMES HUTCHESON & HELEN ISABELLA TODD
Marriage: 21 MAY 1840, Dollar, Clackmannan.

William HUTCHISON - Birth: 11 APR 1841 Chr: 25 APR 1841 Clackmannan, Clackmannan
John HUTCHISON - Birth: 19 JAN 1843 Chr: 19 FEB 1843 Clackmannan, Clackmannan
Helen HUTCHISON - Birth: 28 JUL 1844 Chr: 25 AUG 1844 Clackmannan, Clackmannan
Andrew HUTCHISON -Birth:28 JAN 1846 Chr: 01 MAR 1846 Clackmannan, Clackmannan
Robert HUTCHESON - Birth: 12 SEP 1848 Chr: 15 OCT 1848 Dollar, Clackmannan
Robert HUTCHESON - Birth: 11 JAN 1850 Chr: 03 FEB 1850 Dollar, Clackmannan
George HUTCHINSON - Birth: 04 MAY 1853 Chr: 12 JUN 1853 Dollar, Clackmannan
Margaret HUTCHISON - Birth: 21 JAN 1855 Dollar, Clackmannan, Scotland

1841 cens 466. Ed 5. P? Clackmannan.
Mar's Entry.
James HUTCHESON, 20, Ag. Lab. b Scotland
Hellen HUTCHESON, 25, -------------b Scotland
William HUTCHESON, 2mos?, -----b Clackmannansh
James BROWN, 5, --------------------b Clackmannansh

1851 cens 467. Ed 4 Page 13. Dollar, Clackmannansh.
Nethermains.
James HUTCHINSON, head, 31, Carter, b Kincardine, PER
Hellen HUTCHINSON, wife, 36, ---------------b Saline, FIF
James BROWN, stepson, 14, Bleachfield, b Dollar, CLK
William HUTCHINSON, son, 10, Scholar, b Clackmannan, CLK
John HUTCHINSON, son, 8, Scholar, b Clackmannan, CLK
Hellen HUTCHINSON, daur, 5, Scholar, b Clackmannan, CLK
Andrew HUTCHINSON, son, 4, Scholar, b Clackmannan, CLK
Robert HUTCHINSON, son, 1, -------------b Dollar, CLK

1861 cens 467. Ed 3. Page ? Dollar, Clackmannans.
Mains.
James HUTCHESON, head, 40, Linen bleacher, b Dollar, CLK
Helen HUTCHESON, wife, 45, Do's wife, b Dollar, CLK
Helen HUTCHESON, daur, 16, Linen Bleacher, b Dollar, CLK
Robert HUTCHESON, son, 11, Scholar, b Dollar, CLK
George HUTCHESON, son, 8, Scholar, b Dollar, CLK
Margaret HUTCHESON, daur, 5, Scholar, b Dollar, CLK

The conclusion being that the above James Hutchison born around 1820 is a completely different individual to the Edinburgh one born in the 1790s who married Euphemia Skinners and produced Salvo.

But there must be a good chance they are father and son and on the 1863 marriage certificate the informant has given the name of the grandfather and grand mother (probably step grandmother) of the groom in error as I believe sometimes happens. If that were the case Salvo born 1845 would be James’s born c.1820 step-brother, and William’s born 1841 uncle, I think.

If I were Innjess I think I would round up the census and some certificate data for both families as there could be some interesting developments and revelations further down the line.

Hope I haven’t lost the plot,
Alan