Brick wall - please help

[C]

I've tried loads of searches on this problem and I'm getting nowhere so I'm really hoping someone can get me a little further.

One of my relatives was William Garvie (born November 1864). His birth certificate says his father is another WILLIAM Garvie (shoemaker) and his mother is Isabella Bell (millworker). He's listed as illegitimate. Both parents seem to have signed the entry.

I searched the Dundee East Poorhouse Register and found entries for William and his mother. I emailled them to ask for further information and they kindly replied with the following information:

Surname - Garvie
Prename - William
Admission - 27 May 1868
Age - 42 months
Birthplace - Dundee
Denomination - Protestant
Removal - 30 May 1868
Cause - Dismissed
Parish - Dundee
Comments - Son of Isabella Bell/See Jane Duff

Surname - Bell
Prename - Isabella
Admission - 27 May 1868
Age - 26
Birthplace - Dundee
Denomination - Protestant
Trade - Mill Worker
Removal - 30 May 1868
Cause -
Parish - Dundee
Comments - Mother of William Garvie/Jane Duff

Surname - Duff
Prename - Jane
Admission - 27 May 1868
Age - 1
Birthplace - Liff & Benvie
Denomination - Protestant
Removal - 30 May 1868
Cause - Dismissed
Parish - Dundee
Comments - Dau. of Isabella Bell/See William Garvie

So it would seem that William has a half-sister. On the 1871 Census he is living with his mother but there's no sign of his father or Jane Duff. I was unable to find them on the 1881 Census.

Fast forward to 1890 and William marries Catherine Carroll on 1st January. On the entry his father is listed as JOHN Garvie (shoemaker) deceased. His mother is listed as Isabella Garvie (MS Bell) and is also deceased.

It's easy enough to find information on William Garvie (junior) but I can't find any information on John/William Garvie senior, Isabella Bell or even Jane Duff.

If anyone can find anything at all I'd be extremely grateful. I don't know how three people can seem to appear out of nowhere and disappear again!

[AndrewP]

He's listed as illegitimate. Both parents seem to have signed the entry.

That is normal practice if the parents are not married. If the father is to be acknowledged then he has to sign the certificate. Otherwise, only the mother is named there.

The exception being where the father was not named on the certificate and the mother raises a paternity action in court naming the father. If the court finds that he is the father, an entry is made in the Register of Corrected Entries, and that is noted on the birth certificate.

All the best,

AndrewP

[C]

Thanks for the info Andrew, I only mentioned it as I thought it might be a bit strange that he's signed it then seems to disappear completely afterwards. I guess I expected him to be easier to trace than he's proven to be so far. It's also a bit difficult to understand why William's father is named as John on his marriage entry. Would this indicate he didn't know his father's real name? Or would William Snr have been using John (or William!) as a nickname?

As you can tell, I'm a bit inexperienced when it comes to slightly unusual situations - my ancestors has been wonderfully accommodating up till now

EDITED TO ADD:

I had a look again at the scan of the birth entry and I don't know if something's written in the column to indicate a RCE because it's quite a bad scan. If I remember correctly the listing on SP was wrong and I had to email them for the correct entry. This image doesn't have a GROS number on it so I don't know how to go about asking for a better scan?

[C]

I uploaded the birth entry so hopefully people will be able to see what I'm talking about.

[LesleyB]

Hi C
The image is there
http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... ?pos=-1753

I'm not seeing any indication of a later RCE added to the birth entry.

It is quite possible if William did not grow up knowing his father, that he may have been unsure of the name, thus the mention of "John" at the time of his marriage.

The 1871 would seem like a good census year to follow up as the children will both still be very young - any luck with that?

Best wishes
Lesley

[C]

Thanks Lesley, that was quick! No I didn't think so, it's just after Andew mentioned RCEs I had a look again and I thought the pixels at the top of the column looked a bit orderly...and I wasn't sure if that's just from the scan or if the scan hasn't picked something up because it's too faint.

*sigh* I really wish I knew where to go from here though. This is the part of the tree I'm most anxious to explore because it's my maternal grandfather's line and of all my grandparents I was closest to him (shhh don't tell the other side of the family I said that!).

[JustJean]

There is a DC for a wee Jane BELL....

1870 BELL JANE F 2 ST MARY DUNDEE CITY/ANGUS 282/02 0617

She died at the Poorhouse in 1870 and was the illegitimate dau of Jane (note not Isabella) BELL who is listed as a Millworker. The informant was a member of the Poorhouse staff so might have possibly gotten the names confused.

If there are any additional poorhouse records from 1870 for any of your folks it would go a long way towards confirming if she is the one your looking for.

Best wishes
Jean

[LesleyB]

Sorry, I see you have already seen the 1971 - coudl this be your William in the 1881 LDS disks? Does his occuption match with what you know (given on 1890 marriage)? Did he marry in Dundee?

Dwelling: 69 Scouring Burn
Census Place: Dundee, Forfar, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203481 GRO Ref Volume 282-2 EnumDist 15 Page 12
John GUNN M 35 M Dundee, Forfar, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Baker
Mary GUNN M 33 F Ireland
Rel: Wife
Occ: Housekeeper
Andrew GUNN 11 M Dundee, Forfar, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: School
Mary Ann GUNN 7 F Dundee, Forfar, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Occ: School
Thomas GUNN 2 M Dundee, Forfar, Scotland
Rel: Son
Margaret GUNN 1 F Dundee, Forfar, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Rose COLAND U 55 F Ireland
Rel: Aunt
Occ: Mill Worker Preparer
Wm GARVIE U 16 M Dundee, Forfar, Scotland
Rel: Boarder
Occ: Mill Worker Preparer

His mother may have died by this time....

[nelmit]

Could this be William in 1881? -

Dwelling: 69 Scouring Burn
Census Place: Dundee, Forfar, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203481 GRO Ref Volume 282-2 EnumDist 15 Page 12
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
John GUNN M 35 M Dundee, Forfar, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Baker
Mary GUNN M 33 F Ireland
Rel: Wife
Occ: Housekeeper
Andrew GUNN 11 M Dundee, Forfar, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: School
Mary Ann GUNN 7 F Dundee, Forfar, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Occ: School
Thomas GUNN 2 M Dundee, Forfar, Scotland
Rel: Son
Margaret GUNN 1 F Dundee, Forfar, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Rose COLAND U 55 F Ireland
Rel: Aunt
Occ: Mill Worker Preparer
Wm GARVIE U 16 M Dundee, Forfar, Scotland
Rel: Boarder
Occ: Mill Worker Preparer

Regards,
Annette

[nelmit]

Was so busy looking for Isabella I didn't see your post Lesley.

I too thought about her dying or possibly marrying.

I had a check at the Isabella Bells marrying but can't find a likely candidate.

Regards,
Annette