Margaret Logan, ms O'Brien

ninatoo · Post by **ninatoo** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:47 pm

Hi all,

In chatting with my mother today, it occurred to me that my gg grandmother Margaret Logan, ms O'Brien, may have applied for Poor Relief on the early death of her husband in 1895 in Glasgow. When he died the family was living in 151 Castle Street, Glasgow. She was pregnant and also had four other young children to look after. By the time she had the child, she was living in Muse Lane.

I am asking because I am looking for some proof of where I think she ended up in 1901 (as the name is spelled differently I can't be sure it is her).

Would someone please have a peek at the records for me on their next trip to the Mitchell?

Thanks in advance,

Nina

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 6:59 pm

Where do you think she was in 1901?

Definitely a high chance of an application. If you give me her year and place of birth I'll have a look at some point.

Regards,
Annette

ninatoo · Post by **ninatoo** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:02 pm

Hi Nelmit,

Margaret remarried a John Carroll in Dundee in 1900. In 1901 all her Logan children are living with her Logan in laws (Hugh Logan and wife Mary) in Glasgow. I think they were actually raised by the grandparents as a descendent of Margaret's son Hugh I contacted a while back seemed to think that Margaret O'Brien Logan Carroll had abandoned her children.

I am open to correction, but I could not find Margaret and John Carroll together on the 1901 census. There is a Margaret Carl b. about 1865, Coatbridge, in Hartwood Lanark District Lunatic Asylum (although mine was actually born in High Church in 1868). At the same time there is a corresponding husband John Carroll b. about 1861 in England, in Burns Lodging House, Watson Street, Glasgow.

Thanks,

Nina

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:06 pm

Here is the application from Margaret after John Logan died.

4th November 1896
Margaret O'Brien Logan
2 Meuse Lane
Born High Street, Glasgow
Widow, age 29,
Shawl Fringer - 8/- - 9/- per week -doing nothing for the last fortnight

Children -
Hugh born 3/1/86
Margaret born 1/12/87
Mary born 7/5/90
John born 26/3/94
James born 21/5/96

There were some notes at the side giving a date and some numbers that looked to me like Hugh applied 11/2/29 but I didn't have time to look

Daughter of James Brown

and Sarah Docherty both dead.

Husband John logan, 29 born ireland died 19/11/95 at 151 Castle Street. Son of Hugh Logan 54 Duke Street and Mary Nicol (dead) and Mary Gronan, 54 Duke Street.

Applicants brother Thomas Md +2, labourer - 41 Havannah
James, single, about models
Jane, single, shawl fringer, 2 Meuse Lane, Rent 8/4 2apts
Sister Sarah, single goes with a ???? (looked like Beef

but I'm sure it wasn't

)Barrow

Husband's brother Hugh Md +2, 2 Meuse Lane.

Husband died as the result of an accident - received £50 from his employer and £12 insurance.
Has 5/- and 10/- in hand of husband's stepmother.
Was in Central Police Office 3 years ago fined 10/6.
Fined £5 or 21 days for shebeening

about 8 months ago.

Just realised I haven't got the outcome of the application.

Anyway 9 months later on 15/8/98............................

Hugh, Margaret, Mary and John Logan (ages given) applied for - per grandmother - for outdoor relief from 168 Graeme street, front, low right. Father dead. Mother went to Dundee on 8/11/97 her fare being paid by applicant and has sent no word since April. Child James in Dundee with her. The children reside with grandfather a labourer who earns £1 a week and the grandmother who earns a little by dealing (aye ye widnae be tellin' them that these days

)
House of 2 apartments - Rent £8-15 per annum, 3 beds.

It went on to say how much they got for the children (2/6 a week each) The last entry was 3/11/98.

There was also a short one from John Carroll on 20/1/1911 - D-HEW 17/675 page 128758 -

John Carroll - Residence, Rutland House
Born Liverpool
Parents - John Carroll, dock labourer and Margaret Brannigan (b/d)
Status - Sept (I think, the writing was very floral)
Married 11 years ago at Lochee.

(written in pencil) Wife in Barnhill PoHo 12 years ago from Watson Street Model under name of Carroll. (At 15 Commercial Road back 2 up).
Wife Margaret O'Brien or Logan 45 born Glasgow, h/wife. Daughter of James O'Brien and Janet ?? 1 year Thistle Street SS

Application withdrawn.

I'll leave you to browse over that as I'm starving - back after dinner.

regards,
Annette

ninatoo · Post by **ninatoo** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:13 pm

WOW! Annette, I didn't think it would be that fast! What a lot of information too.

Hmmm....that bit about the Watson Street house...well John Carroll was in there in 1901, but no sign of her.

So I knew she went to Dundee, and it seems she did 'abandon' the children for some time, with the grandfather, since he hadn't heard from her. Son James was back with the other children by 1901.

Was it Margaret or deceased husband John who had the fines at the police office, and shebeening?

Now the note for a Hugh - she had a brother-in-law Hugh Logan who died in Barnhill. This was my family childhood scandal - that he died there, but my mother never knew what from. That note on the side MUST relate to him because the grandfather Hugh had died in 1921, and the son Hugh b. 1886 died at Gallipoli.

If it's not too cheeky to ask for a lookup for Hugh if you get a chance it would be an interesting one to follow up, because of the illness he had when he died - syphillitic ulcers of the groin

. HE was born 1870 in Glasgow and died in December 1927 in 657 Edgefauld Road Springburn - Barnhill Poorhouse.

Thanks so much for this information about Margaret....I don't think it gives me any more clue about her being in the asylum though, but it was well worth the read! What would I do without you?

Nina

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:34 pm

Hi Nina,

It was Margaret who was doing the shebeening after John (Logan) died.

I also had a look at Ancestry for Watson Street in 1901 and there was a women's asylum there but damned if I can find Margaret.

8 Watson Street City Glasgow

Glasgow and West Scotland Mission to the Friendless and Industrial Home for Destitute Women and Girls

At least you have an address for her in 1911. Not too long to go.

Although John Carroll stated the application in 1911 was his first it was actually his second. I didn't order that one as it was well before he met Margaret. I will have a look at it whenever I go next just in case it was updated.

Regards,
Annette

ninatoo · Post by **ninatoo** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:02 pm

Thanks Nelmit....it's first thing in the morning here so I wasn't awake enough to do the maths!

Well, that's going to be a surprise for my mother, if I decide to tell her

. She was 15 when Margaret died, so remembers her well enough. Poor thing must have just gone off the rails for a time after husband John died, as in the ten years before that she had also lost her father (also to a work accident), mother, granny, a brother, a sister and a child. I think I would have found all of that extrememly hard to deal with too!

Thanks again,

Nina

edited to add - I forgot to say it will be good to see what John Carroll said in the other application. I am curious as to what sort of character he had. Did he 'save' Margaret, or did he 'bring her down'? Hmmmm!

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:38 pm

My gg gran from Donegal was probably one of her customers at the shebeen - they lived in the same area and she had a couple of incidents with the police too. She lost at least 3 children (all under 7) and both her parents within a 5 year time span. Can't even begin to imagine how she must have felt so I aint gonna judge.

Have a good day - I'm just about off to bed.

Regards,
Annette

ninatoo · Post by **ninatoo** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:00 am

Having gotten home from work not too long ago, I re-read the above, and noticed that Margaret said her brother in law Hugh Logan was married+2, and lived at Meuse Lane. Now I am even more curious about him, as I have only ever been able to find him on the 1881 census, and his death registration from the poorhouse said he was single. This man is such a mystery that I don't even know his occupation. I am hoping to hear more about him, and of course John Carroll.

In case you are tempted to be carried away Nelmit, as I know I would be if it were me, I should let you know that I have already received a poorhouse record for Margaret's mother Mary Glancy O'Brien (and what a tragedy that was) and one of her brothers, John. Also Ann Logan, sister to Margaret's deceased husband, and his granny Catherine Kemps Logan. And they were almost ALL from you, and certainly ALL from the good people at this site! So if you are sick of me by now, I don't blame you if you don't want to look!

Nina