Pigeonnet Rouge and Dougherty – Heritage Apples.

[Alan SHARP]

Greetings from NZ

The above apples are two of several varieties, of very old heritage apples that we still have access to. We are lead to believe the Pigeonnet has it’s origins in France several hundred years ago, and that the Dougherty is still in commercial production in Croatia. Croatians in our New Zealand northern gum fields may have assisted with it’s popularity north of Auckland.
If any one can lead our research to authoritative information about the origins of the two above named heritage apples, we would be grateful. They are two of the 830 named varieties of apples in Humphrey Ewing SHARP’S “Waikomiti Nurseries” 1886 catalogue.
Humphrey imported large numbers of trees for his nursery and orchard operation. His main UK supplier was from the John SCOTT Nursery of Somerset, which only recently went into receivership, after 150 years of trading. John SHARP’S catalogue also listed supplies of Russian, USA and Australian origin, though the suppliers were not named. His rootstock of choice was Northern Spy.

Alan SHARP.

P.S. Notes about the “Willie SHARP” apple are on the South African forum.

[Currie]

Hello Alan,

Here’s a book you may find interesting if you haven’t already seen it. I can’t see Dougherty listed, and there’s a Pigeon Rouge, but not a Pigeonnet Rouge.

“British Pomology; or, the History, Description, Classification, and Synonymes, of the Fruits and Fruit Trees of Great Britain. Vo.1, The Apple". 1851, 300 pages about apples. http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Vd9 ... J&pg=PA155

Here’s an interesting Apple site. http://www.arboschwin.com/index.php?pag ... _mr&num=17

Pigeonnet Rouge

“Chair blanche, très juteuse, avec une singulière saveur sucrée rappelant l'amande. Se garde depuis déb. nov. durant tout l'hiver. Vieille variété d'origine française (a priori normande). Syn.: Pigeonnet commun, Pigeon-rouge.”

Which Google translates to:

“White flesh, very juicy, with a strange sweet taste reminiscent of almonds. Refrains from deb. November throughout the winter. Heirloom French origin (presumably Norman). Syn.: Pigeonnet common Pigeon-red.”

Is the Dougherty the same as the Red Dougherty? I didn’t get very far with that one. If it’s as old as the Pigeonnet is supposed to be then maybe that’s an Anglicisation of a French name?

If you don’t get anywhere here maybe an Apple forum would be worth a try? http://www.allaboutapples.com/forum/ind ... 9b29e7ed9d

Hope that’s useful,
Alan

[SarahND]

Hello Alans,

Google did pretty well except:

Refrains from deb. November throughout the winter.

Keeps from the beginning of November throughout the winter.

(this looks like beer in the mugs, but is really calvados or pommeau from Normandy)
Sarah

[Alan SHARP]

Greetings Alan [Currie]

I tried to send you a thank you by a PM the first night I was back home, but as it is no longer in my out box, and not saved in my sent box, I’m not sure you got it, May be It’s because my sent box is full.

As always, you can be relied upon to think outside the square, with regard to search options. I never gave “Pomology” a thought. Such an old word, but used all the time back in the 1880’s with regard to NZ horticultural endeavours. Like wise the French site “arboschwin” has added to my confusion.

The British National Fruit Collection “Brogdale” site lists Red Dougherty as a NZ variant of the original Dougherty, and the photos confirm we have either a Dougherty or it’s variant. The French “Pigeon” with all it’s synonymes becomes the issue. I now have photos from NZ, the UK, and France, of apples that bear no resemblance to each other.

I thought the provenance for the “Pigeonnet” ‘Pigeonnettes” (two NZ spellings) was good, because the trees had been with one family for four generations. On reading further, I’m now wondering what root stock the John SCOTT Nursery was exporting its trees on, to NZ in the early 1880’s. In 1887 Humphrey SHARP reported that he was only using Northern Spy rootstock, as previous stocks were not as suitable for the local conditions. The other option was that there were Pigeon Reds and Pigeon Golds etc. but that does not appear to be the case.

The reason behind this question is that the photos I have, most closely resemble the Sturmer, and associated trees Ribstan and Nonpareil, appear to have been used as Pippin rootstock. As the “Pigeonnette” I have appears to fit It’s 1886 catalogue description, there is a chance that the imported tree graft did not take, and the tree that was harvested, all those years ago, was the rootstock pippin.

As usual more questions than answers. Photos are now flying around the world seeking answers.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Alan SHARP.

[Currie]

Hello Alan,

Google has had their hands on a couple of John Scott’s publications that may have been useful:

“Catalogue of Fruits Cultivated and Sold by John Scott, Merriott Nurseries, near Crewkerne, Somerset”, 1868.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=iIq ... CC0Q6AEwAA

“Scott's Orchardist, or Catalogue of Fruits, Cultivated at Merriott”, 1873.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=bcz ... CC0Q6AEwAA

Unfortunately, for some unknown reason, they’re not available online, not even in the USA.

All the best,
Alan

[Alan SHARP]

Thanks Alan.
My Google searches came up with a lot of info about the Scott Nursery closure but not those two catalogues. At least we now know that they have survived, and some of the people I've been corresponding with will have the ability to access them.
Alan SHARP.

P.S. 27-9-2010. Just had an email from David Webster in the UK, he can not get further with the GOOGLE listing for the John SCOTT catalogues either. Now I'll contact the director at the Brogdale, National Fruit Collection and see if they have access to a copy.
Alan SHARP.