Conundrum ....!

[apanderson]

The gist of the story ......

JOHNANN GIBSON, born in Stirling 7th January 1861 to William & Elizabeth Gibson nee MacCallum (Birth Cert.)

She married George Chissel in Glasgow 12th July 1878 (Marriage Cert.)

Their son Edmond George Chissel was born in Stirling 12th April 1879 (Birth Cert.) George the father’s domicile was in Glasgow, mother Johnann’s was Stirling which makes me think they didn’t last long together.

In 1881 (Census) at 143 Claythorn Street, Glasgow, finds father George Chissel living with his parents and wee Edmond George (age 2). George being listed as Married.

In 1881 I can’t find JOHNANN CHISSEL/GIBSON/GREENHORN* anywhere!

(Johnann was previously found on the 1871 Census indexed as ‘Grunhard’. Her mother had married an Archibald *Greenhorn after her 1st husband William Gibson had died. ‘Grunhard’ is Ancestry’s version, but it's undoubtedly the correct Greenhorn family.) She reverted back to Gibson when she married George Chissel in 1878. I tried looking for her under all three names (Gibson, Greenhorn & Chissel with as many variants of her forename and surname as I could think of without success)

Next sighting of George Chissel is when he marries Rachael Woods in Glasgow in 1882 (Marriage Cert.) This was found using variants again and he’s listed as George Chisholm. Again, it’s undoubtedly the correct George. He lists himself as Bachelor!! Rachael was illiterate, signing the M.C. with an 'X' , so she wouldn't have known what was written. She may not have known about the existance of wee Edmond either.

Was this a Bigamous Marriage?

Zooming forward to 1891, George & Rachael are still together at 1 Albert Place, Shettleston, Glasgow with their family, one of which is ‘adopted' son James Chissel age 9. Presuming this child was conceived 1882, it was probably George’s illegitimate child with Rachel. (Have not downloaded the B.C.)

Yet again in 1891 I can’t find JOHNANN CHISSEL/GIBSON/GREENHORN* anywhere!

By 1891, Edmond was living with his Gt. Aunt & Uncle, James & Ann Edmond in Stirling. (Ann Edmond being the sister of his maternal Grandmther Elizabeth Greenhorn, previously Gibson nee McCallum)

Edmond moved from Glasgow to Stirling some time between the 1881 & 1891 Census.

George Chissel dies in 1892 (Death Cert.)

Going forward again to 1900, Edmond is killed in the Boer War and in an Obit (Stirling Observer), it says his father is dead (confirmed by George’s D.C.) and that his mother resides in London. So obviously Johnann is alive, but this is the cause of all my problems as I can’t find her anywhere under any variation I can think of. I tried searching for a marriage/death on S.P./Findmypast/Ancestry without any luck. Also tried Census Returns but couldn’t find her on any of them either.

In Edmond's 1900 Obituary, it's said that he worked in Stirling from c1892, so from this he was presumably living there.

I have searched School Registers in both Stirling & Glasgow Archives to see if I could narrow down 'when he was' where but typically, nothing exists for that exact time period.

I have contacted NAS to see if there was a divorce between Johnann & George but as yet haven't heard back. The Divorce, had there been one, would have been sometime between their marriage on 12th July 1878 and George's re-marriage on 10th March 1882.

Johnann of course, may also have re-married but under what name and where?

Any suggestions to how I might find Johnann's whereabouts from 1878 onwards?

Anne

[nelmit]

Hi Anne,

Did you know that Edmond left a will? I wonder if there is a mention of Johnann in that.

Country code GB
Repository code 234
Repository National Archives of Scotland
Reference SC70/8/21/7
Title Will of 6189 unstated Edmond George Chissel, 72nd Gordon Highlanders, Cause of death: Died,
Dates 26 Aug 1899
Access status Open
Access conditions This record has been digitally imaged and will not be produced for readers. The digital images may be seen in the NAS Search Rooms on the 'Virtual Volumes' system.
Description War Office refs: unstated
Level Item

Regards,
Annette

[apanderson]

Yes, thanks Annette, I knew about his will. I've got a copy of it.

All it says is that he leaves everything to his Grand Aunt Ann Edmond & her husband James Edmond.

Anne

[AndrewP]

Hi Anne,

Johnann is well hidden where ever she went. As you can now search without a surname on ScotlandsPeople, I tried searching for a Johnann (no surname specified) born around 1861. No luck. I tried for combinations of the surnames (including wildcards) with no first name. Still no luck.

The spaceship is starting to seem like a possibility.

All the best,

Andrew

[apanderson]

Sorry Andrew - I've already got her B.C.

See 1st line of original post. (I've put in brackets the certs I've got)

Anne

P.S. She didnae live in Bonnybrige, so a UFO is out

P.P.S. Just in case you didn't know - apparently Bonnybridge is UK's UFO 'Capital'

[nelmit]

Hi Anne,

Have you tried the poorhouse applications at The Mitchell for any of the family?

Regards,
Annette

ps I think Andrew meant he gave a birth year of around 1861 when he was searching the death records.

[apanderson]

Yup, tried that too!

I managed to get records for a different branch of the family in 1911, obviously a bit later on.

Again, I tried every combination of Chissel (+ every combination of the women's names) I could think of, but this was the only one.

Anne

[AndrewP]

Sorry Andrew - I've already got her B.C.

See 1st line of original post. (I've put in brackets the certs I've got)

Hi Anne,

What I meant to say was that I had looked for censuses and a death certificate based on her being born around 1861. I knew what I meant.

All the best,

AndrewP

[apanderson]

I didn't realise that might be what you meant until Annette pointed it out!

I've been down that road too with no luck.

If she died down south and had re-married, dear knows what other name she might have gone under!

I'm a complete novice at English records to start with and I've heard that unlike in Scotland, once a woman marries, she is then 99% of the time, known by that new name. I've tried searching for a marriage/death under every known name (including every variation I could think of) under all 'quarters' in all of England from 1879 onwards, but not being that confident that I'm actually doing it properly ......?

She was only 17 when she married George Chissel (born 7th January 1861), 18 when she had Edmond (born 12th April 1879), so she was really just a wee lassie.

Wee Edmond appeared with his dad on the 1881 Census, then at some point between 1881 and 1891 ended up with the Edmonds in Stirling. His maternal Granny, Elizabeth Greenhorn, previously Gibson, nee McCallum lived not far from the Edmonds and had been widowed for a second time.

In 1881, living with Elizabeth is a wee 'boarder' Neil Wilson aged 7 months who, by 1891 becomes her 10 year old son Neil Greenhorn. Neil turns out to be Elizabeth's illegitimate son, called Cornelius O'Donald Greenhorn on his B.C., continues being Neil Greenhorn on the 1901 Census, then becomes Neil McCallum Greenhorn when he marries in 1906!!(Stating his father as being Archibald Greenhorn on his M.C., but Archibald died 7 years before he was born!! )

My presumption is that as James & Ann Edmond had no children of their own, maybe they were the ones who could offer Edmond a better life than his grandparents?

Sorry for rambling ........ still doesn't explain where Johnann was!

Anne