Queen Victoria saves on telegrams

[Hibee]

I note, from ScotlandsPeople, that the numbers of centenarians in Scotland was as follows:

1881: 57
1891: 44
1901: 41

Any theories for the downturn in numbers?

Hibee

[Elwyn 1]

I would be reluctant to draw any major conclusions from those numbers. In a population of 5 million people a reduction from 57 to 41 is statistically insignificant. A blip.

[Hibee]

Maybe so, but the population had been climbing at around 10% per decade throughout that century (3.7m in 1881, 4.5m in 1901), plus you would expect people to be living longer as conditions improved.

I would have expected about 75 by 1901.

Hibee

[SarahND]

Maybe as time went on they started getting more serious about proving the age of the individuals. I know we have discussed on this board several instances of ages that were wildly exaggerated in newspapers accounts and subsequently disproved by a bit of genealogical research!

Regards,
Sarah

[Currie]

I think that ages at the higher end of the scale would be more unreliable than most. They are really only figures for people who said they were centenarians. Many very elderly people in those decades never really knew for sure when they were born. Some exaggerated just for the sake of it while others appear to have done so in order to obtain celebrity status and gain the fringe benefits that came their way.

Peter Laing from Elgin was one such individual. He did very well, over quite a few years, out of being a centenarian. His fame spread all over the country until a genealogist challenged his claim and proved him to be a fraud. Here are just a couple of the many newspaper articles about this fellow.

Dundee Courier 31st January, 1890.
THE ELGIN CENTENARIAN
So the Elgin centenarian bubble has burst. Mr Cramond, of Cullen, has ruthlessly dashed aside the sentimental web which admiring friends had spun around old Peter Laing. He has proved that Peter was born in the parish of Kinloss, near Forres, in 1801, and that he is now 89 years of age, and not 106. In the controversy that has been going on we have taken but little part; at the same time we were not altogether idle spectators. The result of our investigations has been that we can produce four or five people, now enjoying fairly good health, who knew Peter Laing as a lad. These people have steadfastly maintained from the time that Peter first blossomed into a centenarian that he was nothing of the sort, and some of them gave his age so near that it turns out they were only a year or two wrong. This we have known for some time, but refrained from publishing it because we believed with Mr Cramond that the evidence of very old people without some documentary proof was not altogether to be relied upon. We had also no desire to aid in demolishing the fabric that had been built up about Peter, believing that so long as it did good to the old man it was no business of ours to interfere. At the same time we did not wish to mislead the public, and therefore refrained from giving any prominence to the reports of the annual dinners to which admiring friends treated the old man. Sic transit Gloria mundi.

Dundee Courier 8th February, 1890.
A "CENTENARIAN’S” HISTORY.
PE'TER'S AGE IN POLICE COURT RECORDS.
The Edinburgh Dispatch says:—Since the publication of the official record of Peter Laing's birth by Mr Cramond, schoolmaster, Cullen., the remarkable fact of his age being reduced to 89 led not a few to doubt whether it was actually Peter's register. We have caused inquiry to be made into the matter, and the result has been that Mr Cramond's researches are not only corroborated, but Peter stands convicted out of his own mouth by evidence given at a time when he had not the slightest anticipation of being made to rank as a centenarian. In July 1837, a complaint of the nature of malicious mischief was brought against Peter for destroying a stone wall, the property of Capt. Stewart of Lesmurdie, on the side of the public road leading from Newmill to Lossiemouth. On August 4th of the same year, Peter pleaded guilty, before Mr Patrick Duff, to another charge, and was fined 5s, or twenty-four hours' imprisonment. He was defended by Mr James Anderson, writer. Mr Grigor was then Procurator-Fiscal. In connection with this charge, Peter gave his age at 57, which would now make him 89, as made out by Mr Cramond. It may further be added that the plea is signed in Peter's own handwriting, and therefore the statement which he frequently made that he could not write is disproved. This additional and conclusive corroboration must now set the matter once and for all at rest. The occasions on which Peter appeared in Court are given below, with the age which he gave on each occasion, and the age he would now be if these statements were correct:—
July 31st, 1857 ………… Then 57 years …Now 89
March 20th, 1859 …………….. 54 ……………………85
September 17th, 1865 ….……58 ……………...… 83
October 23d, 1866 ………….… 60 ………..…………84
December 14th, 1867 ………..60………..….………83
December 18th, 1867 …...…..60 …………....……83
June 29th, 1869 ………..….……80 …………………100
April 14th, 1876 ………..…..... 93 …………………106
From this table it will be seen that his age given at several periods is conflicting, but the most essential and important of these is the record of 1857, given at a time when Peter could have had no interest in misstating his age. It will also be observed that between 1867 and 1869 he increased in age by twenty years, instead of two. That Peter has hoodwinked the credulity of the public is now beyond doubt.

Questions:
1. Would QV have stooped so low as to communicate with the peasants?
2. Did the Queen Mum get a telegram from QE2 on 4th August 2000?
3. What age did Peter Laing put on his Census forms?

Alan

[SarahND]

Hi Alan,

3. What age did Peter Laing put on his Census forms?

1851- 65
1861- 71
1871- 86
1881- 96
He died in 1890

A People Search in Libindx gives a biography, but it is difficult to know which details come from fact and which from his claims. It lists many newspaper articles on the man!

http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/mainmenu.asp

Regards,
Sarah

[Hibee]

Yes, I'm happy with the inaccurate age explanation. It would be interesting to see how the numbers of centenarians progressed from 1901.

I wonder if this is in the public domain?

Hibee

[AndrewP]

I wonder if this is in the public domain?

Hi Hibee,

Much of the summary information from the censuses up to the present day is published in books. That part of the information gives no names or details of individuals, so is not subject to the 100 year closure. It includes quantities of people in ranges of ages, or in certain occupations; or how many people lived within a parish or village.

These books can be found in some reference libraries, such as the Scottish Library within the Edinburgh Central Library, or across the road from there in the National Library of Scotland.

All the best,

AndrewP

[Hibee]

Thanks, Andrew.

Hibee

[scooter]

This post made me smile as I'm currently working on a family tree that includes the following Scottish individual, who was alleged to have lived until 125 years old! There are several newspaper reports and a number of other sources related to this, although probably like many people with such claims, the actual documented proof is non-existent - especially in 17th and 18th century Scotland! Two of the most descriptive articles are as follows:

London Evening Post – 31 Jan – 2nd Feb 1760

Extract of a Letter from Annan in Scotland, dated Jan. 24, 1760.

‘Being on a visit to a Gentleman’s Family near this Place, I found them talking of the Death of an old Man who was buried there some Weeks since. The Age of the Man, and some other Circumstances relating to him, appeared to me so extraordinary, that I imagined you might think them worthy the Notice of the Publick. From a Daughter of the deceased, and from some of his Neighbours whom I sent for, I obtained the following Account.

Thomas Wishart was born in the Parish of Finglassie, Fifeshire, Sept, 26, 1635, and died at Turfrig in the Parish of Kirkpatrick-Fleming, in Annandale, Dec 19, 1759, and consequently lived something more than 124 Years. He was bred a Shoemaker, but wrought occasionally as a Day Labourer. He was first married at the Age of Seventeen, and had six Children by that Marriage, the eldest of which, had he still been alive, would have been 106; and another yet alive, is 81. In the 70th Year of his Age he came to reside in Annandale, and soon married again. The Issue of this Marriage was twelve Children; the youngest of which is a lusty young Fellow, six Feet high, aged 21. I have found nothing remarkable in the Way of living of this old Man, except that he chewed Tobacco from seven Years old to his Death. The great indigence in which his whole Life was spent, obliged him to Temperance; but when drink was in his Power, he shewed that Temperance was not with him a Matter of choice. This venerable Strulbrug was seldom heard to complain of Age or Infirmity, but always expressed great regret at a Funeral, envying the deceased, and saying, ‘Every Body can die but me.’ Enquiring about his Memory, they mentioned some Pieces of Chronology, which, as they are peculiar to Scotland, I am not much acquainted with. He used to talk much of the great Eclipse called Mirk Monday. He said he was then employed in ditching, and well remembered that several frightened Birds dropped near him. He also remembered what he called the White Harvest; which I found to be some Time of civil Commotion, when the Men were obliged to leave that Work to the Women.

Seven Years since he was seized with the Palsy; but recovered in six Weeks, and only retained a little Defect in his Speech, which made him less conversable, though not less Communicative. He had lost no Teeth, heard well, and saw so clearly as to thread a small Needle (which was shewn me) two Days before he died. He walked erect, and went six Miles, on very uneven Ground, ten Days before his Period. The Day he died, he had sent his Daughter for a Taylor to make him a Winter Coat, and was left alone. He rose, went to the Peatstack for Fewel, and to the Well for Water, made his Breakfast, and had taken Part of it, being found fallen back upon a low Table, and Senseless; and though he had got a slight Contusion on his Face by the Fall, still holding his Spoon in one Hand, and the Dish in the other. This was at Twelve on Monday Noon. He lived till Four the next Day in the Afternoon, breathing as if asleep, gradually weaker, till he expired without a Groan.’

Liverpool Mercury – 9 April 1873

THE OLD MAN OF ANNADALE. – Thomas Wishart, a descendant of George Wishart, the martyr, was born in the parish of Kinglassie, in Fifeshire, 26th of September, 1635, and died at Turf Rigg, in the parish of Kirkpatrick-Fleming, in Annandale, 19th of December, 1759, and consequently lived something more than 124 years. It was said that “he chewed tobacco from the age of seven to the time of his death.” He was not remarkable for temperance, yet seldom got drunk. He was first married at the age of 17, and had six children by that marriage. In the 70th year of his age he married again. The issue of this marriage was twelve children. He seldom complained of infirmity, but, towards the close of his life, when he saw a funeral he expressed himself as if envying the deceased and would add, “Everybody can die but me.” Seven years before his death he was seized with palsy, but recovered in six weeks, only retaining a little defect in his speech, which made him less conversable, though not less communicative. He had lost no teeth, heard well, and saw so clearly as to thread a small needle, which was shown him two days before he died. He walked erect, and walked on very uneven ground six miles just ten days before his death. The day he died he had sent his daughter for a tailor to make him a winter coat, and was left alone. He arose, went to the peat stack for fuel, and to the well for water, made his breakfast, and had taken part of it, being found fallen on a low table, and senseless, but though he had received a slight contusion on the face by the fall, still holding the dish in the one hand and the spoon in the other. . This was at twelve on Monday noon. He lived till four the next day afternoon, breathing as if asleep, gradually became weaker, and expired without a groan. It may be interesting to our readers that Mr. B. D. Wishart, fishmonger of 105, Great George-street is the great grandson of the wonderful “Old Man of Annandale.”

Having worked on this tree for a month or so now, I have found larger number of individuals who have lived well into their eighties, nineties and a couple beyond that (with evidence) so perhaps inherited?

Cheers,

Scott