Another Poor house lookup request please!.....

[ninatoo]

Hi all,

I have two ancestors who died in the poorhouses and I would dearly love to know why they were there, and perhaps learn a little more about their lives.

Firstly Jane Watson, pauper, m.s. Lawrie died December 8, 1869 at Glasgow City Poorhouse aged 77 years. Parents were Andrew Lawrie and Janet Maxwell.

The second is John Cotterill, hammerman, (death certificate spells it Cottrell) died July 30 1906 at the Combination Poorhouse Dumbarton aged 64. Parents were Joseph Cotterill and Sarah Pitten.

I would love to know the fate of both these ancestors because there was plenty of family around to help care for them, yet they ended up in the poorhouses!

I hope someone can help, and thanks for reading!

Nina

[nelmit]

Hi all,

I have two ancestors who died in the poorhouses and I would dearly love to know why they were there, and perhaps learn a little more about their lives.

Firstly Jane Watson, pauper, m.s. Lawrie died December 8, 1869 at Glasgow City Poorhouse aged 77 years. Parents were Andrew Lawrie and Janet Maxwell.

The second is John Cotterill, hammerman, (death certificate spells it Cottrell) died July 30 1906 at the Combination Poorhouse Dumbarton aged 64. Parents were Joseph Cotterill and Sarah Pitten.

I would love to know the fate of both these ancestors because there was plenty of family around to help care for them, yet they ended up in the poorhouses!

I hope someone can help, and thanks for reading!

Nina

Hello Nina,

First of all John - which I hope helps with Elizabeth and Jane.
I had a lot to do so important details only.

APPLICATION FOR EDUCATION
Date of application -4.10.1887
John Cotterill !5 Rosemount Street.
Place of birth - Oldham,Lancashire.
Married, age 48, Labourer, Religion - Protestant Wife Roman Catholic
Not in good health
Wife - Jane Inglis born Woodside, a housewife.
Dependants : John, b.4.5.75, 117 Dumbarton Rd
James b. 23.6.77 117 D.......
Sarah b. 27.11.81 29 Victoria Street.
Frederick b. 30.10.83 Southampton
Elizabeth b. 14. 3.86 Rosemount St
Not Dependant : Jane b. 13.8.71 Anderston St. Partick
Helen b. 21.5.73 Douglas St

Parents : Son of Joseph Cotterill and Jane Fitton both dead.
Wife's parents : Thomas Inglis and Jane McLachlan

John died July 1906
Jane died 15.4.22

Here they are in 1881
Dwelling: 49 Victoria Street
Census Place: Govan, Lanark, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203686 GRO Ref Volume 646-1 EnumDist 25 Page 18
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
John COTTERLL M 38 M England
Rel: Head
Occ: Hammerman
Jane COTTERLL M 36 F Partick, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Wife
Jane COTTERLL U 10 F Partick, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Occ: Scholar
Helen COTTERLL U 8 F Partick, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Occ: Scholar
John COTTERLL U 6 M Partick, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
James COTTERLL U 4 M Partick, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Son

I'll go and type up Jane Watson's now.
Regards,
Annette M

[nelmit]

Date of application - 8.12.1865
Jane Lawrie Watson
7 New Vennell 2 up with Mrs. Docherty.

Born - Co. Donegal, Ireland. Widow age 74.

Wholly disabled. Protestant.

Children - Margaret age 42 widow of James Docherty has 5 of a family at work.
William age 40 a carter married 4 children.

Widow of Samuel Watson who died 33 years ago.
Her parents were Andrew Lawrie a tailor and Janet Maxwell both dead.
Resides with her daughter widow Docherty at above address.

Annette M

[ninatoo]

Annette, you are wonderful, no doubt about it! I can't believe you did that so fast! Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!

Firstly, John Cotterill. I am so pleased with that record because it tells me where he was born, and also his son Fred's birthplace. Previously I only knew they were born in England. Second, some different parents for Jane...wow I hope this is a breakthrough for that branch of the tree! I will check shortly, but I am just so excited I had to reply here first. And she was a Roman Catholic...hmmm, given the religious climate of the day it may be why she lied about parents on her marriage registration. Such a wealth of information in that record....so thanks again!

As for Jane Lawrie, also a bonus since I didn't know she was Irish, much less from Donegal! And a new son...I don't have William listed.

You have been such a great help to me! If I can find out anything for you in return in Australia, let me know!

Nina

[ninatoo]

Hmmm...so now I am wondering exactly what an 'application for education' was? John Cotterill already had a trade, that of a hammerman, before the date of this application, and I assume he could read and write a little at least since he signed his certificates. Could it be that he needed to change his working career because of the poor health mentioned? If anyone can enlighten me I would be grateful.

Also although he died at the poorhouse in 1906, apparently estranged from his family, he was still living with them in 1891, and 1881. So I assume any benefits he may have received from the above application were awarded to him as an outpatient (or whatever the correct term is). And I also wonder why he applied to Dunbarton, when his home was in Glasgow.

Any guesses?

Nina

[Cathy]

'application for education'

Hi Nina,
I have something similar.
It was to pay for the children to go to school.

[ninatoo]

Thanks for that Cathy...makes sense!

I now have the 1901 census for the family...no John, and he doesn't seem to be showing up in any other area. Yet I know he was alive until 1906!

I tried various spellings, but the only one SP pulled up was for a 4 year old!

I thought he would be in the Poorhouse by then, but if he is, they spelled his name wrong or something!

Did I read that you can actually search for residences on the censuses?

Talk about frustrating! Maybe someone else is more clever at searching censuses than I!

Here's hoping!

Nina

[DavidWW]

......snipped............

Did I read that you can actually search for residences on the censuses?

Talk about frustrating! Maybe someone else is more clever at searching censuses than I!

Here's hoping!

Nina

Via the 1881 CDs or online at ScotlandsPeople.gov.uk , yes for 1881.

No for the other censuses, except if you are in at NRH (and The Mitchell?) where there are street indexes for 1841 to 1901 which will give you the enumeration district. Some other libraries may hold some of these.

In 1901 there are street indexes for most urban places of any size, but the number of places covered decreases decade by decade until, in 1841, it's only Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh and Glasgow for which the indexes exist.

Many moons ago the SP User Group actually tested a computerised version of the 1901 index but, however much the UG liked it, it never made it onto the SP site !!..... possibly because of a GROS attitude towards such situations which means it is very sensitive to there possibly being large numbers of searchers who wouldn't be able to locate a record because it's not there ....... this is why it took around 18 months from the original SP launch to get the second surname facility added to aid searching for the death of a married female ........ as the information wasn't always supplied by the informant........

Going back to census street indexes you will find that the majority of FHS, individual and FreeCen databases are not searchable on address, but a few are.

David

[ninatoo]

Thanks David.

[ninatoo]

"APPLICATION FOR EDUCATION
Date of application -4.10.1887
John Cotterill !5 Rosemount Street.
Place of birth - Oldham,Lancashire. "

Nelmit, I once again thank you for your efforts to help me. I went off to try and find John at Oldham, and had someone at another board tell me that there was no John Cotterill born at Oldham in the right time period, and only one in all of Lancashire for that time.

So I decided to try searching for the son Frederick, born Southampton, Hampshire, on the appropriate board. I noticed someone else there asking for a record in a place called Odiham. Hmmm, Odiham...Oldham...

So now, without knowing which written form the Poorhouse records exist in (typed or hand written), I need to ask you whether the place of birth for John could have possibly been "Odiham, Hampshire"

If you can't recall specifically, (as I know you help out so many others here and must look at hundreds of records) would you mind having a wee peek next time you are at the Mitchell? THis has really got me curious.

Also right at this moment I can't get onto the LDS site...it seems to be having a few problems lately. So I can't check where any of the John Cotterills may have been born.

Thanks for reading and also for your help given so far!

Nina