Hallo Everyone,
I am researching the poems of Janet Reid of Carnock or Bridge of Allan that were printed as broadsides in the 1840s. Occasionally she uses Scots words in them and I have found the meaning in Scots-English dictionaries except for the two words in the line: "But cheipicks and dandylerie they surely are to blame". The meaning will have a connection to weavers, or to their cloth, or to their customers! Can anyone help?
David Flint
Meaning of "cheipicks and dandylerie"
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David Flint
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DavidWW
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Jack
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Re: Meaning of "cheipicks and dandylerie"
Hi David,
Welcome to TS! Maybe you could post the poem? It might give a better idea as to the context in which they were used?
Can only guess some heid bummers & high falutin folk were thought guilty of neglect or interference.
Jack
Welcome to TS! Maybe you could post the poem? It might give a better idea as to the context in which they were used?
Can only guess some heid bummers & high falutin folk were thought guilty of neglect or interference.
Jack
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WilmaM
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I have a Chambers's Scots Dictionary [ I don't know how that differs from what David has ?]
I gives a few like words, but nothing exact.
Dandillie : adj. - celebrated for beauty
n. woman who makes too much of herself
Dandillie-chain : Chain made by children from dandelion stems.
Cheip - v.chirp
Cheepart: n. meadowpipit: small person with a shrill voice.
Knowing the context may help.
I gives a few like words, but nothing exact.
Dandillie : adj. - celebrated for beauty
n. woman who makes too much of herself
Dandillie-chain : Chain made by children from dandelion stems.
Cheip - v.chirp
Cheepart: n. meadowpipit: small person with a shrill voice.
Knowing the context may help.
Wilma
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David Flint
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Thank you Jack and WilmaM,
I think you are on the right track and that it may mean cheapsters and dandies (even better put by Jack!) or shabbyness and finery. The poem was written in 1838 during the peak of a trade depression when there was severe unemployment among the 800 hand-loom weavers of Dunfermline and starvation was only alleviated by soup kitchens. This is the poem - Janet Reid (who was 60 years old and who could work no more as an agricultural labourer - her father was a weaver by the way) had it printed as a single sheet broadside and she sold them on the streets at a penny or halfpenny each:
ON THE HONORABLE MANUFACTURERS
OF DUNFERMLINE
SUCCESS I wish to Mr Dewar,
For he was always kind unto the poor;
Success I wish to Mr Cooper,
He gave the weavers silver and copper;
Success I wish to Mr Hunt,
I hope him nor his will never want;
Success to Messrs Walker, Fergie, and Bryce,
To hold on the weavers’ side they are very wise;
Success I wish to Mr Beveridge,
For he gave the weavers work when they were ike
to perish;
Success to all the rest I do not know,
I hope none of them will ever prove the weavers’ foe;
But as for the weavers’ enemies,
They deserve a proper tease;
They have surely never read the 13th chapter of
St Luke,
Or they would have seen how the rich man got his
rebuke.
I wonder how the rich the poor can so despise,
For in hell the rich man lifted up his eyes,
Against the weavers they should not be so severe,
Before Christ’s judgement-seat they must all appear;
They have surely never read Christ’s sermon on the
mount,
Or about the weavers’ wages they would never chunt;
I wish them to read the ninety-fourth psalm,
And to the honourable weavers to be always calm;
Unto the weavers’ enemies here I have no name,
But cheipicks and dandylerie they surely are to blame.
Janet Reid, Carnock
This broadside is in the local history collection in the Central Library in Dunfermline - it was given to them by the son of the Mr Beveridge mentioned in the poem. Interestingly, all the names mentioned can be found listed as linen manufacturers in Dunfermline in ‘Fife Shopkeepers and Traders (1820-1870)’ by Andrew J Campbell published in 1989 and now available on the internet.
David Flint
I think you are on the right track and that it may mean cheapsters and dandies (even better put by Jack!) or shabbyness and finery. The poem was written in 1838 during the peak of a trade depression when there was severe unemployment among the 800 hand-loom weavers of Dunfermline and starvation was only alleviated by soup kitchens. This is the poem - Janet Reid (who was 60 years old and who could work no more as an agricultural labourer - her father was a weaver by the way) had it printed as a single sheet broadside and she sold them on the streets at a penny or halfpenny each:
ON THE HONORABLE MANUFACTURERS
OF DUNFERMLINE
SUCCESS I wish to Mr Dewar,
For he was always kind unto the poor;
Success I wish to Mr Cooper,
He gave the weavers silver and copper;
Success I wish to Mr Hunt,
I hope him nor his will never want;
Success to Messrs Walker, Fergie, and Bryce,
To hold on the weavers’ side they are very wise;
Success I wish to Mr Beveridge,
For he gave the weavers work when they were ike
to perish;
Success to all the rest I do not know,
I hope none of them will ever prove the weavers’ foe;
But as for the weavers’ enemies,
They deserve a proper tease;
They have surely never read the 13th chapter of
St Luke,
Or they would have seen how the rich man got his
rebuke.
I wonder how the rich the poor can so despise,
For in hell the rich man lifted up his eyes,
Against the weavers they should not be so severe,
Before Christ’s judgement-seat they must all appear;
They have surely never read Christ’s sermon on the
mount,
Or about the weavers’ wages they would never chunt;
I wish them to read the ninety-fourth psalm,
And to the honourable weavers to be always calm;
Unto the weavers’ enemies here I have no name,
But cheipicks and dandylerie they surely are to blame.
Janet Reid, Carnock
This broadside is in the local history collection in the Central Library in Dunfermline - it was given to them by the son of the Mr Beveridge mentioned in the poem. Interestingly, all the names mentioned can be found listed as linen manufacturers in Dunfermline in ‘Fife Shopkeepers and Traders (1820-1870)’ by Andrew J Campbell published in 1989 and now available on the internet.
David Flint
Researching Janet Reid, poetess of Carnock, Fife, and of Bridge of Allan, 1830s-1850s.
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Malcolm
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Hello David, I’m glad to see you made it. Your poem is interesting. Biographical even.
I thought it might help to split dandylerie into two parts. Dandy, meaning foppish you will already know about. Lerie is probably colloquial version of lear,leare,lere or leir all of which are archaic words meaning something which is learned. Both words originate in Scotland apparently.
Perhaps the modern equivalent of dandylerie would be nouveaux riches meaning persons with newly acquired wealth, but without good manners or taste. Maybe we should reintroduce dandylerie because from Janet’s poem it has wider meaning for it embraces additional human traits like selfishness, insensitivity to others etc.
Some more work is required with the other word. My immediate feeling is that it means the equivalent of cheapskate
Did you transcribe the poem verbatim? Some of the stuff I read is heavily accentuated like the writings of Robert Burns and I’m never quite sure whether this is affectation or not.
MM
I thought it might help to split dandylerie into two parts. Dandy, meaning foppish you will already know about. Lerie is probably colloquial version of lear,leare,lere or leir all of which are archaic words meaning something which is learned. Both words originate in Scotland apparently.
Perhaps the modern equivalent of dandylerie would be nouveaux riches meaning persons with newly acquired wealth, but without good manners or taste. Maybe we should reintroduce dandylerie because from Janet’s poem it has wider meaning for it embraces additional human traits like selfishness, insensitivity to others etc.
Some more work is required with the other word. My immediate feeling is that it means the equivalent of cheapskate
Did you transcribe the poem verbatim? Some of the stuff I read is heavily accentuated like the writings of Robert Burns and I’m never quite sure whether this is affectation or not.
MM
Morris (formerly Morrice) of Fife and Geekie of Scone
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David Flint
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- Location: Basingstoke, Hampshire
Hallo Malcolm,
Very glad you put me onto this site! Thanks for the information -'cheapskates' is very appropriate. I've turned to a thesaurus and have found 'dandiprat' which seems a nice fit! I realise that I haven't found an authorised translation of 'chunt' four lines earlier - though she probably means 'begrudge'. Any ideas?
I have not changed the words in the poem. Janet Reid never went to school and never learned to write. But she was taught to read by a young man. She dictated her poems and her neighbours wrote them down for her. I think these transcribers purged her poems of most of the Scots which she must have spoken - which is a pity. I understand that lots of people at that time considered Scots inappropriate for print.
If you or anyone else would like to see what one of her broadsides looks like please go to the National Library of Scotland website and click on 'The Word of the Street' which shows 1800 broadsides (out of the 250,000 they have got!) from the 1700s-1900s with Scottish interest. Search them for 'Janet Reid' and it will take you to her broadside of 'On a Comfortable Cup of Tea' and a bit of information about her which I gave them. All her broadsides look like that one - with different borders of printer's 'flowers'.
David Flint
Very glad you put me onto this site! Thanks for the information -'cheapskates' is very appropriate. I've turned to a thesaurus and have found 'dandiprat' which seems a nice fit! I realise that I haven't found an authorised translation of 'chunt' four lines earlier - though she probably means 'begrudge'. Any ideas?
I have not changed the words in the poem. Janet Reid never went to school and never learned to write. But she was taught to read by a young man. She dictated her poems and her neighbours wrote them down for her. I think these transcribers purged her poems of most of the Scots which she must have spoken - which is a pity. I understand that lots of people at that time considered Scots inappropriate for print.
If you or anyone else would like to see what one of her broadsides looks like please go to the National Library of Scotland website and click on 'The Word of the Street' which shows 1800 broadsides (out of the 250,000 they have got!) from the 1700s-1900s with Scottish interest. Search them for 'Janet Reid' and it will take you to her broadside of 'On a Comfortable Cup of Tea' and a bit of information about her which I gave them. All her broadsides look like that one - with different borders of printer's 'flowers'.
David Flint
Researching Janet Reid, poetess of Carnock, Fife, and of Bridge of Allan, 1830s-1850s.
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David Flint
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- Location: Basingstoke, Hampshire
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Jo G
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chunt
"Stop your chuntering" or "chuntering on" was used in our family to mean moaning or boring the pants off someone with complaints!
Jo
Jo
researching Graham, Stewart, Alexander, Stevens, Buchan, Baird, Cousin, Cameron, Hardie, Butters, Porter, Bryson, Moffat, Liddell, Burnett, Galloway, Dickson, Pringle, Cunningham, Forrest, Smart, Archer, Borthwick, Kyd, Justice and others...
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Malcolm
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Hello David
I have been reading those broadsides for some time now and really enjoy them. Since you brought them to my attention I have been looking for the poems of Janet Reid though, and couldn’t find them. I will have more time to myself next week and will take another look then.
It wasn’t until I looked for your dandiprat in the dictionary that I realised where I had come across it before. I think it was in the word quiz at the back of the old Guardian but it was referring to an old unit of currency rather than the “insignificant person” meaning.
I may not have made myself very clear before. I connected, lerie, meaning something which is learned, with the nouveaux riches through the inference of acquiring wealth and social standing in contrast with those who obtained it at birth. I hope I'm making myself clear here
I see Jo G has filled you in with regard to chunt. Chunt er or chund er means to murmur or grumble. The latter word is also shown as being Australian for vomit but I reckon that’s because it was used frequently by an Aussie cartoon character in the satirical rag, Private Eye. I think the given definition for chunt fits well with your Janet’s poem.
I hope this is all making sense and that you are making progress.
Malcolm
I have been reading those broadsides for some time now and really enjoy them. Since you brought them to my attention I have been looking for the poems of Janet Reid though, and couldn’t find them. I will have more time to myself next week and will take another look then.
It wasn’t until I looked for your dandiprat in the dictionary that I realised where I had come across it before. I think it was in the word quiz at the back of the old Guardian but it was referring to an old unit of currency rather than the “insignificant person” meaning.
I may not have made myself very clear before. I connected, lerie, meaning something which is learned, with the nouveaux riches through the inference of acquiring wealth and social standing in contrast with those who obtained it at birth. I hope I'm making myself clear here
I see Jo G has filled you in with regard to chunt. Chunt er or chund er means to murmur or grumble. The latter word is also shown as being Australian for vomit but I reckon that’s because it was used frequently by an Aussie cartoon character in the satirical rag, Private Eye. I think the given definition for chunt fits well with your Janet’s poem.
I hope this is all making sense and that you are making progress.
Malcolm
Morris (formerly Morrice) of Fife and Geekie of Scone